Explore the cutting-edge world of blockchain, privacy, and cybersecurity in this captivating episode of the Redefining Society Podcast. Get ready to redefine your perspective on the digital age.
Guests:
Fatemeh Fannizadeh, CLO at Swarm Foundation [@ethswarm]
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/Fatalmeh
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Welcome to another thrilling episode of the Redefining Society Podcast, hosted by Marco Ciappelli. Today, we dive deep into the future of privacy, identity, and technology. Joined by Fatemeh Fannizadeh, Chief Legal Officer of the Swarm Foundation, and Sean Martin, we explore the potential of decentralized data storage, blockchain technology, and how it could redefine our society's approach to privacy.
Imagine a world where privacy is not a luxury but a fundamental right, where our personal information is secure, and we have control over how it's used. This might seem like a distant dream, but with the advent of decentralized technologies like blockchain, we might be closer than you think. The Swarm Foundation is working tirelessly to develop a decentralized data storage and transfer layer, aiming to reshape the way we interact with the web.
But the road to a decentralized future is not without its challenges. The intersection of technology, ethics, and philosophy has never been more critical. As we delve into the implications of artificial intelligence and privacy, we are faced with the question: can we truly reclaim our privacy in an increasingly digital world?
The answer to this question lies in the balance between centralization and decentralization. As Fatemeh points out, there is no one-size-fits-all solution, and the ideal scenario is having a multitude of options to choose from, allowing individuals to opt-in and out of systems that best serve their needs. In this context, the role of legislation and regulation is pivotal, ensuring the safe development and integration of new technologies into our society.
This episode will challenge you to think about the possibilities of a decentralized future and the potential consequences of the choices we make today. Can we build a world where privacy is not only protected but cherished? How will the integration of blockchain technology into our everyday lives change the way we think about identity and personal data?
Join us for an insightful conversation that will leave you contemplating the future of privacy, identity, and the impact of technology on our society. Don't miss this episode of the Redefining Society Podcast, and be sure to share your thoughts, subscribe to the podcast, and join the conversation as we redefine society together.
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Resources
Swarm Foundation: https://www.ethswarm.org/
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To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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voiceover00:15
Welcome to the intersection of technology, cybersecurity, and society. Welcome to ITSPmagazine. Let's face it, the future is now we're living in a connected cyber society, and we need to stop ignoring it or pretending that it's not affecting us. Join us as we explore how humanity arrived at this current state of digital reality, and what it means to live amongst so much technology and data. Knowledge is power. Now, more than ever.
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Marco Ciappelli01:52
Hello, everybody, this is redefining society podcast with me. But today it means Marco Ciappelli on ITSPmagazine. Today, I brought some some help brought Sean, everybody knows who Sean is. And we're divided. You don't know him. I'll introduce
Sean Martin 02:12
everybody knows me but me. You know,
Marco Ciappelli02:15
that's, that's good. That's very psychological, we can have an entire conversation about knowing each other and knowing ourself, it's it's different story, what we're here for and why Sean, I brought you in because this is a conversation about a foundation called the swarm Foundation based in, in Switzerland. And but we were kind of like in a pickle like is it is a cybersecurity story is more of a society story. And it is both
Sean Martin 02:47
as usually happened last the armwrestling match. You lost
Marco Ciappelli02:51
it because we also now have a technical person but a lawyer. So we're going to look at this from a different perspective. But I think there is a lot of interesting bits and bytes in how this actually approach to protecting our privacy. And how can we do this with technology? Of course. So that's why Sean wrote you in and you're gonna need your help. But of course, it's not just the two of us. We have a guest again, I mentioned it, Fatima from the swarm foundation organization that is joining us all the way from Switzerland. How are you?
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 03:31
Yes. Hi. Thank you for having me today. I'm very well things.
Marco Ciappelli03:36
Very good. Very good. So I would say, Shawn, let's let's first understand what we're talking about here. So and with whom we're talking here. So a little introduction about yourself and maybe a couple of bits about the foundation and then we go from there.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 03:53
Yes, of course. So as I said, my name is Fatima fan is a day. I mess with qualified lawyer working in the blockchain brother space since five years, six years now. And I'm also a chief legal officer of the Swarm Foundation. And the swarm foundation is the one of the few entities who is in charge of developing the swarm network, which is a decentralized data storage and transfer layer using its own network, but as well as a token on the Ethereum chain
Sean Martin 04:35
nice and let's let's go back to the beginning I'm going to take it Marco because I don't know how many years ago i i was working with a company doing blockchain stuff before blockchain was cool. And the the the use cases for the technology are endless. And privacy is certainly one and Security is another which use cases for those two scenarios are endless as well. So, how was the organization found? And who found it in? Why, you know why? Why are we talking about the swarm foundation today? Why is it important
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 05:18
is so as far as foundation exists now for I think since 2019, the foundation itself will be 2021, the project dates back to when Aetherium was founded. So swarm swarm project itself belong to what was known back then. And maybe the newcomers in the space have forgotten about this narrative that came in play with Ethereum at the very beginning of the world computer. And swarm was supposed to be one aspect of this world computer alongside the Aetherium. Chain, and whisper which would have been the messaging component of this world computer. And over time, so swarm was incubated by the Etherion Foundation. And over time, it did absorb the messaging aspects of this world computer, as well as the data layer that it was in has been building. And a few years back, it did become independent from the Ethereum Foundation, what we call it has graduated from its incubator, and at that point onwards, then the team, mainly the two co founders, Victor Tron and Daniel naggy, as well as a team of now I think around only within the this one entity Around 40 people, but there are multiple other entities and individual efforts deployed around the globe, on swarm are now working to make this project a reality, but also a reality that is using our daily basically usage and interactions with the web. And you asked me also, why is this project important? So I give you the historical background of swarm. But also, I think, today we did this project is in the works for a few years, it's it's a massive project of huge ambition of basically building an infrastructure for the internet we use or the web we use, that is drastically different from decentralized infrastructure that we've been used to interacting with knowingly or unknowingly. And given this ambition, it does take a long time to build something that can basically scale and give us the safety and an in basically guarantees that we need when we upload any form of data online. And now it becomes a very important discussion, because I feel like swamp has, amongst also the other projects in the data, decentralized data layer space, are becoming major enough to basically be the center of the conversation right now. And people are also becoming more and more aware of the need of decentralized data. And such projects.
Marco Ciappelli08:09
Yeah, so let's talk about that. Let's talk about that need. So one, one thing that I hope people are not tired of hearing me say is that we never talked about ethics and philosophy in public space and conversation around technology, like we're doing nowadays, you know, from, from the artificial intelligence to the privacy, I mean, everything is related to Okay, that's all cool, but how does it apply to, to our everyday life, to our business, to our society to the way you know, and of course, personal data comes in? And so, you know, let's talk a little bit about privacy. I mean, that's, that's kind of like the angle that I think people will be interested. And what all of these let's all, you know, Blockchain the vision of the web 3.0. I mean, how is this going to really change? And the question is, is it really gonna give back privacy to the individual? I think that's the million dollar question.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 09:12
I mean, it's very interesting. The way you also ask, the question isn't gonna give back as if it has been taken away from us and like, we're in this constant battle to like, get it back or get back what we deserve. I feel like with like, more and more technologies, whatever this technology is, like, we can even think of the printing press back then, right? Like whatever increases the flow of information, also, in some way decreases privacy of that information. But then it comes with some positive aspects and negative aspects. So this tension has always existed with technology. But now we live in a world where this technology is basically entered all of the aspects or all of the all of our lives. So no matter where we are, where we go, if we have a phone with us, like we're sure that there's data basically come indicated are leaking. So this question becomes more relevant. But this is not a new question that we have to ask ourselves. So I like to remind myself of this often because we have, or at least I used to have this bad habit of thinking of these problematics as new problematics that we're facing. While if we put it in perspective, generally, of civilization and just advances in various form of technologies, we then realize that these are just questions that were always dealt with in different forms. And of course, the urgency is also different in the negative aspects or possible consequences are also different in scale. But yes, I feel like this technology generally and distributed disinterest technology is very, very important. Innovation for just generally society, and, and everyone involved in the society to gain by the agency and sovereignty that has been lost over time through centralization.
Sean Martin 11:02
So let's look at some of the laws and regulations and acts and standards and things like that. I don't know if I can say this correctly. But are they answering a question with out asking the question? In other words, do we do we have the right people looking at this and asking the right questions, so that we have a path moving forward, I don't know if you can give us an overview of some of the recent changes in legislation around the world, perhaps, that are kind of guiding some of this.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 11:36
So there are there are a lot of legislative efforts, that that are also pretty controversial. Currently, we've heard a lot about European Union trying to legislate through what's called mica and and which would lead I think, to its current form to a regulatory landscape that is pretty negative for defy, operating within the European Union. In the US as well, we've, we've, we've hearing very regularly actually, like sec, for instance, and enforcing or sending letters to various projects, or various notable individuals in these projects, which has happened several times this week, there is a lot of attention for sure, in the blockchain space right now. So the attention is mostly targeted towards defy decentralized finance, towards tokens. So either like coin base, because it's enabling purchase of tokens or trading of tokens, for instance, or just like defy protocols, which is, again, around tokens, or just projects that do launch their own token that may be considered a security. So the focus, I think, from a regulatory perspective is mainly on this. The decentralized data space has yet to become the focus of regulators. It's still I think, not something that they do focus on, and they have other other fishes to catch, or to pursue. But what is essential dataspace right now is basically free to develop, the worry that I have as a crypto lawyer following all of these actions very, very closely, is that one narrative that people put forward in defense of blockchain is the transparency of it. So saying that, for instance, Blockchain is transparent, so you can follow what's happening on there. It's better than for instance, the banks that are a black box and look what's happening with with the crisis currently, right. So people always point to this transparency as a future. While I feel like if we push this narrative too much, then the next wave of privacy technology that for me is going to be the big next thing happening to this face will have a hard time being being adopted or accepted also by all various public actors, if they see it as going against his narrative that was sold to them by the crypto space.
Marco Ciappelli14:25
So I have a quick question it every time we have this conversation, and especially in the news, I'm not a big fan of the news, even if I you know, of course I read I mean, it just, you know, the centralization of things. It's always like black or white, it's one way or another, and I am a big fan of truth is always usually usually in the middle, especially when it comes to society. So does it have to be one or the other? I mean, is it like, everything we've done so far sucks, which is not but you know, here, here's the best way to do it, or can we integrate This system isn't always like this, you know, regular banking crypto blockchain versus the way we've done things so far. What's your view on that?
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 15:09
I mean, I feel like it's there's the ideal view and then there is the realistic view. And then there is the also do the wanted view in some way like I mean, I in an ideal world, maybe I would be a Bitcoin maximalist, I don't know, I would think, fuck the banks, we don't need them. But I can point to extremely few people who live outside of the banking and traditional finance system, and their lives are not enviable, because it requires a lot more logistics. And I feel like all of these institutions we have currently, although a lot of them have been just clogged by bureaucracy have lost their original intended purpose that was positive, I believe, for society. But they are nonetheless all serving a purpose. So I feel either this purpose can remain and they can keep on doing the work. And we'll have an added tool available to all of us. And people didn't can opt in and out and choose whatever fits best for them and their needs, which is generally best, in my view, to have more competition, rather than just like one monopole or the other, right. So people who are like, we don't want any form of fear with the one form of banks, then you're just pushing everyone towards another monopole, that's gonna become another form of institution that's going to become itself lose, its its original intent, and so on. So this is kind of the, the wheel, I feel of time. But I think we should all basically call live in all of these institutions can call live, and then they can serve better their purpose because they don't have to do everything.
Sean Martin 16:55
So this makes me think I'm trying to think of how our listeners are, are absorbing this. And I think a lot of what we're seeing make sense, in an abstract, or at an abstract level, but I'm wondering if you can help us kind of visualize some things we might encounter on a daily basis, where there's a traditional system versus a blockchain system. What What challenges do we have and one or the other and the benefits of one or the other? And why this conversation is an important one, given first scenario,
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 17:33
first, and I feel like generally, you're very right, actually, these discussions are abstract, because we don't have these mass adoption throughout the world in a uniform way. But we need to be able to abstract also to basically get this vision and then build towards that vision, right? So if we can, we cannot even like have any, how can we have any full self fulfilling prophecy if we cannot prophesize it. But there are many examples where it where it's actually being used right now. So if now go back to basics, basically, if I think of, of crypto such as Bitcoin Monero USD t. I can give examples for each of them how they are part of people's daily lives in various parts of the world. So I will start with the infamous example of Monero being basically I think, the crypto with the most utility in some way, alongside Bitcoin, and then some stable coins, in the sense that it's used on a daily basis by a lot of actors on the dark web for for just commerce. So first of all this is used, then we don't enter the question of whether or not is a legitimate use of it. But nonetheless, it is part of our societies and our financial world. Then there is more acceptable use case, which would I would give the example of Iran because that's a country I know. Well. I'm originally from there. I was born there. So I still have contact and I follow the Iranian communities in crypto. And I know that. So Iran, for those who don't know, is under economic sanctions and in global sanctions for around 40 years plus, I think right now, so it is it is entirely caught from the Swift banking system, which means that the banks within Iran don't have any relationship to banks outside of Iran. So you cannot do wire transfers. You cannot use your Visa, MasterCard or any other credit cards in Iran. So you just think of it as this this very autonomous kind of and financial system, but the fact is that people Iran do travel outside of Iran, they do sell goods outside of Iran. But then they don't have a way to make this money go in or out. And they do use a lot of. So I may have mentioned USD t. So usually they would use stable coins and use USD T, and not necessarily on Aetherium because of the high gas prices or transaction prices, but on another chain, and it's part of their daily life. So a lot of people know about about crypto, they're in countries where with a lot of inflation, so Iran is again an example it is Lebanon, there's multiple other places in the world where the local fiat currency loses value in a very, very high pace manner. People usually turn to cryptocurrency as, as as a way to hedge against this risk, right? So even like when we can see the chart of Bitcoin goes up and up and down, like for a lot of people from maybe Europe or the US or places with more financial, stable financial systems, you would think, okay, like this is too much risk. For others, this looks like a pretty, pretty low risk currency compared to the local ones. So they are usages, to just commercial usages, export import usages through it, there are hedging usages. These are from the top of my head, but I'm sure there are many multiple other ones.
Marco Ciappelli21:38
Yeah, that makes all sense. And you know, it's unbelievable how some technology think we lost your some technology, I think it was going with what I was talking about some technology, I have to go under the other. So I think technology played with me on this that make you disappear for a second. But then there is a fact that is you said at the beginning of your answer you, you need to create a case study and more adoption. That's the thing. That's how you turn it. So some people are adopted, for obvious reason, because it's the alternative way to do things. And likely there is bad and many other technology. But give me an example maybe on how this more of the mass adoption could be done in terms of somebody who has a business somebody is, you know, has an organization and wants to start using this open system that you have. What do they need to do? What does it mean for someone they really need to change quite a bit, again, is this something they can run on two on a parallel street and go to both ways that somebody needs to do one or the other and how this is implemented by, you know, the regular everyday person or the business, a concrete example of that.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 23:09
I mean, I feel like a concrete example would depend really, on the context we're discussing here, I don't think that anyone needs to right now adopt or like crypto or blockchain technology, or decentralized data technology within whatever they're traditionally doing, unless they have a specific need for it. I don't think that the industry is such right now that it has become an unavoidable kind of feature to have in any businesses. And but other than this, I feel like I'm thinking like, we see a lot of like concrete examples, like a lot of E commerce platforms may also accept crypto as payment, for instance. So they integrate with with payment providers that do also accept crypto. So this would be like a very concrete example of things happening basically, anywhere, I think we can find businesses or we can basically find goods to buy with crypto, I think anywhere. So that will be a concrete example, what I think in terms of mass adoption, and here I'm gonna go back to to swarm and basically decentralized web or data. I feel like they will be mass adoption for this at some point, in such a way that when someone will use will open a website or use some form of apps connected to the internet without them even knowing they will. Basically, on the back end of things to avoid the webpage will use this insurance data. So I feel like this is not a form of infrastructure that is aimed directly at the user. Obviously if used Once it can integrate, or just decide that instead of having their website hosted on a centralized hosting service, like AWS, for instance, that they hosted on a decentralized one, such as swarm, they can already do that anyone can do this. Within most people don't need to host their own websites or apps, even nowadays, right? They use other people's, or other projects, apps or websites. So I feel like for this form of mass adoption, it's gonna be in, in on the back end of things and people won't necessarily even be aware of of that.
Marco Ciappelli25:35
But what about from so the there is the users and there is the business that decides to use it. So you offer the option, me go to a website, I'm like, okay, I can use the usual way, put my credit card and pay waiting in that way. Or I can do it using the different channel. And so what how do I make that decision? What is the benefit? Because I feel like a lot of people are still like, trying to digest this thing. You know, we talk about blockchain and crypto. And I feel like and I'm one of those I don't know the detail of it. I'm fascinated. But unless you get technical, you know, so what's the translation in an everyday decision for me or anyone else to say, oh, there is that option? I'm gonna go with that because of the benefit. So what are these benefits? And maybe what are the risks.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 26:36
So the benefit from the business point of view, and then I'm gonna tackle the user customer point of view. So the business point of view, it's access to market, the market of those who hold crypto and want to spend crypto. And this market is growing, and usually people in so there are, I mean, there's a lot of resources and wealth within crypto. So this is definitely something that is worth tapping into. And especially on the earlier side, right, like the day that everyone like, you can buy everything on Amazon in via crypto, which is I think possible right now, but not directly. But like, you can, for instance, buy my gift cards via crypto and then spend those and so on. So it's more or less possible right now. But once everyone is using it, then then as a business, you have no other choice than to integrate that right now you can capture a bigger part of the market as positioning yourself, although I don't think that we are that early either. So that's one aspect. The other aspect of it is just also, it depends. If you do international commerce, then you don't deal with banking fees, or just credit card or like payment processing fees in the same way. There are fees, but I think there are lower than these are for currency exchange Forex fees, and so on, it would make more sense. So you can think of it as an international currency rather than a state currency. I mean, the business then can keep its Bitcoin, for instance, it doesn't need to change it to dollars if it doesn't want to right and then can also spend it. So I think from all of this point of view, it makes sense, then there's the ideological point of view. So should the business want to end venture into this? That's very personal. Maybe they just want to approach it from an economic profit perspective, from a branding perspective, from a geological perspective, or just from like a technological perspective of like of interest, if they want to if they want to be there, just nerdy businesses. So there are there are many, many, many, many views on this. But I feel like so myself, I've been integrating from very early on when I started as a freelance crypto lawyer a few years ago, also accepting basically payments of my fees in crypto. And I found it interesting. Also, to set it up to understand how it works. It does. I mean, depends. So I profiled myself as a crypto lawyer because I, I got into the space and I got just obsessed and fascinated by it. And then it turned out I didn't want to do anything else. So it did also make sense and I feel like right now. Other than crypto, which is more general, a lot of people use it. And and from the customer perspective, or the business perspective, it makes sense. It also depends where we are located. So it's what makes sense in the US is very different than what makes sense in Africa, or what makes sense in Iran or what makes sense. I don't know in China. So it's we also have to put that into perspective. And generally if we try to define crypto in one way or the other, we're gonna miss out on many of the of aspects of it. So it does make sense. It does also make sense for customers for similar reasons. If they have it, to spend it and to be able to give it use it right? I feel like this is has already happened that we're past the adoption phase in some way. It's not mass adoption, yet. The user experience is not optimum, yet. There are many obstacles on the way. But nonetheless, I feel like we've passed the point where people doubt that this thing even exists, right? It's like established?
Sean Martin 30:31
And can I ask, that doesn't matter? So decentralized, decentralization kind of take some of the I don't know what the right word is, but owner control away from an entity, right, but there's still, there's still an entity controlling multiple different entities control their own version of this decentralized space? Right? So I guess my question is, doesn't matter. Who or what or where this decentralized space is implemented? For example, should we care if meta owns that space versus Google versus a nation state versus an unknown running a run in a crypto?
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 31:19
Do you think we should care? I'm gonna have an answer, obviously, where discretion? I think it's the core of it all. But but but I feel like,
Sean Martin 31:28
I'd like to think we shouldn't have to. But it's very we aren't we always we already see obstacles that make us have to make decisions on do we do we even spend the time understanding how this works, setting up wallets paying the gas fees, and to do what what am I what am I going to get out of it? So I then have to understand that as well. We're gonna use it once I set all this stuff up. So and then, and then beyond that, it's the questions of Well, can I trust the entity that I'm doing doing this with?
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 32:00
Marco, would you have the same answer? I'm turning
Marco Ciappelli32:07
this this is getting philosophical in a way, right? I mean, if there is a you want, you want to cut out the man, right, the control and the government and get your privacy back. But it come at a price that, again, it's I don't know, if you would look at the history, or political science, you know, you, you know, the king is that, you know, now you have another one, you know, better is a not so I think it was Shawn brought up. It's very, very deep questions. So. And I think that's, that's the problem. I mean, at a certain point, you have that social contract that you say, Well, I'm gonna have to trust someone, and maybe I need the legality that control it. And I think that may be the reason why not only is a little bit difficult, I'm playing devil's advocate here. But it may be a little bit still difficult for the user to get the wallet and all the crypto system to go with it unless you have to. In that case, of course, I mean, you know, but convenience, security, there's always that thing. It's like, you know, we talk about this all the time, I'm not using somebody say I don't want to just two FA because I had to do an extra step imagine these unless the value is really, really big. So I am for that, but I think it's gonna be a long transition in between. Absolutely. Thank you.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 33:49
You're welcome. And I love asking this question, because actually, you're both, you're both entirely right, I think. And usually, this is a question that divides right. Is the question some people say, code is law, we shouldn't have to trust anybody else, right like this, the whole point of the decentralized technology is to remove the trust aspect from decentralized entity that cannot be trusted. That's one aspect of it. And it's true. The whole technology is built upon that narrative. But then the other aspect that you mentioned very well Marco is the tyranny of technology, then we end up being slaves basically, to this code that can be problematic for many aspects. So the first one that you also mentioned is that I, as a lawyer, for instance, with no very little coding experience, I cannot actually audit myself what I'm using, and we're talking about, like simple code right now, but at some point, it won't be possible for even tech savvy people even it's already not possible to go through it all to understand whether or not they can you can be trusted so so there is always going to be a level of trust in something So it's whether in the code or in Korea, it comes with network effect, because we know other people are using some must be good. Which experience Rosa is not necessarily the case, there are still hacks are still bugs, there are still negative experiences happening nonetheless. But I feel like it's, for me, it's very important that we have technology that are we have tools as, like society, we have tools as as individuals to use that do not depend on a centralized individual or entity. So I want to have this agency and sovereignty to be able to, to handle my own finances, for instance, handle my own data on the web. And without this to be entirely transparent to someone else, I do not trust or even if I trust or not, I don't want this other person to have this, this view over my personal data that belongs to me and deserves to be private. And I feel like we need to have this as the base basically, so that I can knew I can choose to have the privacy online the same way I can choose to go in my home and close the door and the windows and have this privacy. The thing is that we always valued privacy in our personal in our personal physical lives. And this has like, you know, you can speak more quieter, if you have, you're telling a secret you can like, as I said, close the door, turn off the lights, like there are things you can do in your normal life that if someone tells you you're never allowed to turn off, the lights are never allowed to pull the curtain, people will be mad, I can tell you people will be really mad. Yeah, we don't think of the online virtual space as the same way as the physical space. But it's wrong. I feel like this is also another form of, of space in which we live in. It's also another form of public space, depending on where we are in the online realm. And for that it has to be treated, treated, at least with the same respect or with the same minimum standards as in the physical space, even maybe more, because then jurors are more because you have more eyes on you in the online virtual world that you have in the in the in a tiny street in front of your house, right. But we usually don't think of this analogy. And, and I feel like that that's why it's very important to go towards decentralization. Nonetheless, this is also why it's extremely important not just to seek decentralization, but this to seek a form of ethic or moral decentralization, that's when we have to turn back and be like, okay, is code can code be neutral, is code devoted, have any form of biases, I think that right now it's become more and more established that it's not right. It comes with code has an author and this author is an imperfect human, or is an AI whose author is an imperfect human. So as, at some point, there are biases and things we have to be careful with. And I feel like in any venue where individuals gain more agency and sovereignty, they have also more responsibility to think for themselves as to what is right or wrong. And as to like how to enforce this. And if I can just go back to swarm on this point. And, and what is called the Fair Data Society, which is basically a set of an organization that is concerned about a set of ethics or more rules, in order for us to have a usage of the decentralized data layer of the web, that is confirm with our morals or ethics, not that we just build technology and let it in the wild and not care about there. But how this tool can be used. I think we as humans are also responsible to lead such lives, that maybe this is outside of the scope of this podcast, or
Marco Ciappelli39:04
no, this is exactly in the scope.
Sean Martin 39:09
We don't have more time, because I can totally get philosophical here just in terms of I mean, just look at interest rates and who manages those and defines the rules for how banks can operate and how markets can work. We kind of understand that stuff. But not not put it on, put it on the chain, right who really understands that which chain and and so there's the if we do regulate, who's going to understand it enough to regulate it. And if we don't regulate, we're putting that understanding on to the individual. And how are they going to understand that to regulate themselves in that environment or environments that they choose Marco so Well,
Marco Ciappelli39:52
welcome to political science, and all the choices of the lesser evil and many Have those things, but I have to say we're gonna wrap it because we're at 38 minutes. And I am very aware that people have to do other things like on this broadcast and people listening. But I'm gonna set up a wallet. But I think this went exactly where I was hoping it was going to be. So I really loved how you wrapped everything and put the different perspectives on this. So I want to thank you for that. And I hope that our audience will get a better picture. It's probably not clear and not clear in anybody's mind. We're still building this thing. I think that's that's the point. And try a better way to, to do things online and all your perspective on privacy. I think going from Gutenberg reference and the printing to today's technology is really relevant. So thank you so much. I would love to have you back to when we talk even more about ethics and and in philosophy of technology. But for now, I'm going to say thank you to Shawn, thank you to you for him. And thanks for everybody listening to this. If you have any comment, and you want to get in touch with any one of us, you'll find all the notes in the podcast and if you're watching the video, same thing underneath get subscribe. Stay with us ITSPmagazine With a financial safety podcast. Thank you, everybody.
Fatemeh Fannizadeh 41:29
Thank you. My question was Thank you.
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