"Redefining Society" peers into the back and front stage of live music's past and present, questioning if the essence of music remains at the heart of today's high-tech concerts or if we're witnessing the birth of a new entertainment paradigm
Guests:
Rafael Brown, CEO/Founder at Symbol Zero
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelbrown/
Carey D'Souza, CEO and Co-Founder at IAMPASS [@iampassHQ]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/careydsouza/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/carey_dsouza
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast and Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Once upon a time, we jammed to the raw chords of garage bands, and now, we immerse ourselves in the high-fidelity spectacle of the Sphere. In our latest episode of Redefining Society Podcast, we dive into the heart of music's metamorphosis over the past four decades, spurred by tech, societal shifts, and, of course we throw in the mix the undeniable power of analog nostalgia.
Music's journey from casette and vinyl records to streaming services like TikTok has not only changed how we consume tunes but has also transformed the very fabric of the industry. The conversation between Marco, Carey, Rafael, and Sean unfolds, revealing a different perspectives on the subject. The allure of YouTube residencies, the charm of live performances by icons like Pearl Jam, Iron Maiden, Tina Turner, Pink Floyd, and the question of authenticity in the era of blockbuster concerts are all dissected with passion and insight.
Rafael's contrast between TikTok's influence and the traditional music giants sparks a debate on the essence of entertainment. Is the lavish production of today's concerts compensating for a lack of substance, or is it enhancing the experience? Marco's thought-provoking take on the Sphere—a venue that blurs the lines between a music event and a theatrical extravaganza—invites listeners to ponder if music alone can still captivate the hearts of a modern audience.
The interplay of marketing, celebrity culture, and the need for meme-worthy content in the music industry are scrutinized. Taylor Swift's brand synergy and the commercialization of everything from stadium tours to "Swifty Sauce" are testament to the evolving landscape where music, brand, and technology may get confused with one another.
As the conversation shifts to U2's influence on the Sphere's success, questions arise about the power of visual effects and whether they can make or break a music event. Sean's commentary on the potential of lesser-known bands to draw crowds in such a venue touches on the stark realities of brand power in music.
In the end, the episode not only reminisces about the rebellious anthems of the '80s but also contemplates the future of live music. It's a reflective journey that connects dots between the societal impact of technological advancements and the eternal love for music that resonates through generations.
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Resources
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To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
Watch the webcast version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTUoWMGGQHlGVZA575VtGr9
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: What you saying, Reverend? Are we recording? No. No. So Ralph, you were talking
[00:00:06] Carey D'Souza: about, you were talking about the,
[00:00:08] Rafael Brown: the, the, the, the landscape of music industry driven, legal and financial. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, if, if, if you think about it, it's, it's driven by the changes in technology, but you're also right.
It's driven then us reacting to that in younger generations. Um, realizing that they can consume music in different manners. Um, and, you know, it, it's, it's. Honestly, it's things like, you know, it's things like on the one hand, YouTube, um, going and doing a residency in Las Vegas. And there've always been residencies, but you know, YouTube is effective.
[00:00:45] Carey D'Souza: Marco, you don't like YouTube or you don't like YouTube? You don't like the idea of people
[00:00:49] Marco Ciappelli: doing residencies? I like them too much to actually know
[00:00:52] Rafael Brown: that they're doing that. Here, I'll, I'll, I'll throw in, in, you know, To the notion of consumption changing, I'll throw in a counterpoint for folks to think about, which is that TikTok is changing the way that music is consumed by younger people, and part of it is the fact that TikTok has a separate language.
Music app. But another part of it is that TikTok has a decent way to control their own algorithms and music consumption, where they will take songs that are from 5 to 12 years old, take clips from those songs, make those available to streamers, and they will basically reintroduce and create hits. You know, you had, for example, uh, over the summer.
Um, TikTok influencers all, um, going, you know, all taking the, the, the hit, um, which I think it was from like eight years ago, um, there was a, a French artist who did a song called Makeba, um, Makeba, uh, about Mary Makeba, but you had all these folks basically dancing and lip syncing to roughly, you know, three to eight seconds of an audio clip.
And then everyone going off and listening to that song that nobody had really listened to for ages because TikTok put it into their algorithm. Show us, Raf.
[00:02:15] Sean Martin: I want
[00:02:15] Rafael Brown: to see the moves. Oh god, no.
[00:02:22] Carey D'Souza: Yeah, but on the other hand, you also got people like, um, Taylor Swift on John Mayer drawing thousands of people. into stadiums. Um, well, Taylor Swift is still very much entertainment focused. I mean, she's got great music. She's also a great entertainer, but you look, look like John Mayer, purely guitar. Oh, Pearl Jam.
I mean, I just saw Pearl Jam concert, no fancy frills. It's straight up music, two and a half hours of pure music. That's the kind of music I remember. But I also remember Pink Floyd, right? Pink Floyd. I mean, if you look at it, the brilliant music and, and then they have massive light shows and then, and they have the whole storytelling through music, through the wall concerts and stuff like that.
So. So I think they, they probably started the whole, they started a lot of things. They were the first for a lot of things, but I think the whole telling a story, um, through the music and really entertaining people that, that was, that was, uh, it started in the seventies. And I think we've just taken it given the technology is advanced to a level where it's become cheaper to produce this, this massive shows.
Um, potentially has driven, um, and the fact that we as, as audiences are demanding more if you're going to pay like 200 bucks for a ticket, I want. Unless I'm going to listen to Eddie Vedder, I want, I want, I want, I want a big light in a song.
[00:03:52] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, I'm sorry. You said, unless I'm going to listen to Eddie Vedder, hmm, Pink Floyd can do a show, but also amazing musicians.
So we can get very... Kind of polemic here about, are we covering something? Are we adding, are we adding sauces on the dish? Because it's not such a good dish. And so, well, I don't know, Madonna wasn't the best singer. She kind of created the whole show thing.
[00:04:18] Rafael Brown: Let's dive into a little bit more
[00:04:20] Carey D'Souza: Pink Floyd. She was an entertainment.
[00:04:21] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. I
[00:04:23] Rafael Brown: mean, the interesting thing about Pink Floyd is, is that, you know, like they didn't wholly create the rock opera, but that notion of the concept album, and then of taking. the elements from the concept album and putting them on the stage. You know, yeah, The Who did some of that. Rolling Stones did some of that.
I mean, you know, there were more, there are more obscure bands and, you know, Yes and Osric Tentacles and all sorts of folks. But that notion, if you think about it, kind of got shrunk down and made bite sized over time to where You know, it became, you know, new generations wanted it to be, to be meme worthy.
You know, you didn't have to have the big concept, but everything in music needed to have a concept in order to be digested. Um, and, and if anything, we have much more of a sense now that musicians are celebrities and that they engage in the public sphere. And then you have things like Taylor Swift making news, um, for dating a football player.
And, um, you know, the latest thing is the, the meme of, uh, you know, there's literally now a thing called Swifty Sauce, where she, she was off, you know, supporting her boyfriend playing a football game. And there was a tweet from her tour that was Taylor Swift enjoying chicken bites with Ketchup and Seemingly Ranch.
And Ketchup and Seemingly Ranch was literally just released by, um, by Kraft as a new flavor. Ketchup and Seemingly Ranch, which they also apparently do, previously called Kranch, but they're calling it Ketchup and Seemingly Ranch because they know that... Taylor Swift fans will buy it up in ridiculous amounts.
Um, and so there's this, there's this commercial synergy, where basically, if an artist does something, they go play the MSG Sphere, or they go somewhere, they do a thing, they project onto social media, and it increases their sales, it increases the sales of who they work with, and it's all about commoditizing them as a brand.
For better, for worse. So I've got two
[00:06:45] Carey D'Souza: questions to that, Raph, and this is all of us. I mean, so is music more of a, is music today become more of a marketing, I mean, always well, but now it seems to be more and more because the, the heroic nature of the hero worship that most musicians, um, enjoy. Does it become more of a marketing machine and to Now, if you look at the, the thing that you two, you two did in Vegas, we take you two out of there and you put, let's say, let's say you put a not so, a band, which is not, um, not that big, would the special effects and the visual, uh, visuals, um, all of that, would that have, um, the same effect or would people still go?
Well, the sphere, it's, if I take my
[00:07:33] Sean Martin: guitar, guitar, the power of the YouTube brand to promote the sphere. Sphere, obviously we're talking about the sphere, right? Right. We haven't been talking about YouTube, but they, that's, if it's a local band, we're not gonna be talking about it in this except for the eyesore that it might be in, in the town.
[00:07:50] Marco Ciappelli: All right, so let, let me, let put this, so there's a hope for me, Sean, is that what you're saying? Yeah, of course. Um, you can just lip syncing. Uh, let me just put this into context because, you know, people probably have heard us before. It's, uh, once upon a time, tomorrow, we'll talk about AI. We'll talk about the strike in the, uh, in the, in the writing industry, in the entertaining industry and movies that we talk about something that.
Uh, it was a show that we just recorded me and Kerry. And by the time that you listen to this, that one would be actually live. We talk about privacy and we have been itching to talk about music because as you can tell, we're pretty passionate about music. And I think we, each one has his own kind of music, kind of opinion.
And, and this conversation. Came up from the sphere, which we already mentioned in, uh, in the conversation, just started, uh, to have shows in Las Vegas is this incredible piece of technology that cost, if I understand exactly 2. 4 billions, which is not little, uh, 15 516 foot wide, which is 157 meter wide, high resolution LED screen, the largest on earth, inside and outside, with 17, 600 seat audience, so made for Music and the question that I had on a post couple of days ago, it was like music or an entire concept, different concept of entertainment, which is kind of what we already discussing.
So is a music not enough anymore or is completely different the way we consume it? So, or is it
[00:09:38] Carey D'Souza: even a concept? Uh uh what is it, even a concert? Is it a concert?
[00:09:49] Rafael Brown: Well, let's, let's think of it this way, um, the sphere is to music as IMAX is to film. Um, in, in that, you know, so whether that, whether that holds or not, MSG wants to do more spheres. They are looking at it as a way to upsell ticket prices and to build a more immersive production that, you know, that an artist can go off and do a thing for a while.
And it's, it's one way to have a giant stage show that, you know, can basically, frankly say that it's bigger than anything else. You know, it's, it's, it's like, it's like, this is the biggest thing until they make one bigger.
[00:10:44] Sean Martin: So the thing that strikes me, maybe it's depending on what concert you go to, this might change, but I look around others. In the venue and are they watching? I actually looked at, I looked at a video that I recorded maybe six years ago, uh, in San Francisco is the red hot chili peppers. Oh, no, I'm sorry.
Blink 182. And I have a video cause I was recording through my camera. And in front of me, between me and the band, were hundreds of other people recording on their cameras. So I'm wondering, is anybody experiencing anything? Or have we, or have we arrived to a point where it's all about, I was there, I have proof that I was there, and therefore I'm cool, and it's more about me.
Projecting that to others more than experiencing it. I don't
[00:11:47] Carey D'Souza: know. And I think it's become, I don't know
[00:11:50] Sean Martin: that the spirit changes that in it. What's that?
[00:11:53] Carey D'Souza: Well, so I agree. I mean, and that began, and so if you've ever gone to a tool concert or a perfect circle concert, the first thing manager James Keenan says when he comes out is whatever your bloody phones or you'll be thrown out.
He literally will not allow you to film it unless the last song, it's the last song of the night, that's when he said, okay, now you can pull your phone, that'll record this. And the whole thing is that. Hey, we worked a couple of years to produce this thing for you. If all you're going to do is pull out your phone and not watch it, what's the point?
Like bloody hell, we'll be releasing YouTube videos. I mean, go watch it while you, the live show experience is completely gone. So, but to your point, Sean, I think not just music, I think a lot of stuff has become that, right? And it's all about record something, post it on Instagram and tell people I was here because it's, and that, therefore I'm cool.
I'm
[00:12:42] Rafael Brown: drafting on their coolness, but think, think about this also, um, other, other bands and other groups, uh, actively encourage people to pull out their phones. And if you think about it, there used to be a notion, let's say, like, let's go back to like the 70s or 80s of people holding up lighters, um, even to the extent that you would have people who didn't smoke, who would have take a lighter to a concert.
And they would hold up the lighter to be able to, like, it's audience participation. Um, and so now you'll have bands that will, will ask people to pull out their phones to tap the button to have the light that projects, that projects on their phone like a lighter.
[00:13:24] Marco Ciappelli: Okay. So I'm going to try to jump on both.
So one, the camera, I have regret many times to be one of those. I have seen concert where Finnish, you know, Guns N Roses, U2, and Pasadena as well. Uh, then I'm like, I'm an idiot. I just watch one quarter of the concert through my phone and I'm here. I'm not experiencing these people. So I've learned the lesson and now I try not to do that.
So in a way, you're... That's why you have GoPro. True. You're bringing somebody else with you to do it. Right. And everybody's like that. So the lighter, it's a little bit different because you're part of the event. Participating in that. And I want to make a reference to this again. Rose Bowl Pasadena a few years ago, Coldplay.
Great, amazing concert. Thanks to my wife that brought me there. And they were giving some computer control, cheap, um, um, bracelet. We will light up to the beat of the song and people, instead of having the lighter, you know, next generation of the lighter, you just go up and, and the entire freaking. Rose Bowl was, beautiful, but you're part of the show.
You're not estranging yourself from it. Like I think you do, like Sean said, when you're filming it. So bring this to a show where the sphere advertised it as, we don't tell people what to watch. They watch whatever they want, which means. There is the stage and all of a sudden I'm fascinated by, I don't know, a planet that is exploding on the right hand side.
I'm, I think it's great, but it's not a concert. So
[00:15:23] Carey D'Souza: is this the next generation of MTV then? Where, where, you know, how they had music videos where you, you, music was more of a providing, providing the The soundtrack for the actual video that I was playing, and I think, again, Tool did a great job. They had these crazy animations, where the music would sort of, yeah, is that what we're looking at right now?
Is the Sphere the next generation of immersive MTV?
[00:15:51] Rafael Brown: Uh, well, so I think that that the Sphere is a particular... Live immersive MTV. Yeah, but like, you know, like if you think of it, um, it'll be interesting to see who goes into the sphere because the, because U2, for example, is kind of a band for our generation.
Like I, I would be curious to see if a band, you know, let's say like Blackpink or Taylor Swift goes into the sphere because they may not need to. Um, and, and also that their audience might not Go, go into that. Um, you know, I think that we're seeing some, some splintering and bifurcation of different types of music entertainment as, as, as musicians try to find different ways to, to grow and, and to make a living or make a few extra million.
And so, you know, maybe, maybe the sphere is a way for, um, you know, like there've always been. Artists going into Las Vegas and doing a residency. And maybe the sphere is a next stage of that, of spectacle that, you know, not that it has to just be the sphere. I have a thought,
[00:17:06] Sean Martin: I don't know what the future holds for it, but I can envision the sphere being a platform that has cutting edge technology capable of doing whatever the band wants. And so to switch it now, the band has an environment to perform within. That does a lot of stuff for them. And perhaps they can focus on the music and actually performing and the platform and the venue actually enhances what they're really good at.
[00:17:40] Rafael Brown: So I actually want to bring that back to you. That's an interesting, well, so let's bring it back to YouTube because, um, you know, being Frank, I'm not in Las Vegas. I haven't seen the show, which just got started, but I read the reviews and. I was interested also because I know a few people who work on the sphere and, um, and, and a year ago I had folks who were like, Hey, do you want to do something on this?
I was like, well, like, you know, we're a game developer. I don't quite know what we would do on that. And, but it was, it was intriguing because I realized that like, there's the kind of attract mode of the actual sphere to... We have a thing in Vegas and it's best viewed from far away and you see the sphere and it's huge.
It's a giant marble in the middle of Las Vegas and there's development for that and it is a platform and then there's development for the thing inside because in the reviews what they stress is that the band has very little on stage. They have a stage that was literally designed by Brian Eno who's worked with U2 before to be a minimalist stage so that The band has exactly what they need and then everything else projects onto the screen around them.
And, and so it is absolutely like, you know, they're not trying to bring in props. They're basically going experience our music and then look up.
[00:19:04] Marco Ciappelli: You know what it is? It's the real. Metaverse. So you go in there, you are immersed into this universe, kind of like the idea of the IMAX, you know, to be in within, to be in the movie.
I mean, when you said video games, I'm like, huh, you could have, a game like electronic game competitions in there where people experience in within the battlefield or the drone race or whatever. I mean, I, I think it's amazing. They have, they have the ability to do that.
[00:19:37] Rafael Brown: But it's not music.
So, and this is where it gets to spectacle. So one of the things that, that Gary brought up when he was describing it and was like, it is kind of going to become a platform is he was like. We have the ability to, like, there's a, there's a network structure that's set up to do really robust Bluetooth, and everyone who goes in could potentially download an app, and we could take signals from everyone's, from everyone's phones, and everyone's phone could be a controller.
And, you know, like, we got into philosophical discussions about, like, If we've got 20, 000 people within this thing or whatever it holds, can we make useful signals for interaction between 20, 000 people and stuff on the screen? You know, it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, the interaction between one screen and it can have different spaces, but how do you, you have to design differently for interaction with a crowd and, and You can have interaction, but it has to be very limited and very simple.
And at that point, I was like, it's completely different from the virtual concerts that we've been doing. Let me just think about it for a while, because the notion of an interactive back and forth between the screen and the crowd while the band is playing. Is an intriguing thing, but it's new territory and I don't want to just suggest something and have it fall flat.
And I kind of like to see one of these things before we suggest designing for one because we could and it would be intriguing. But I also don't want to like take away from the band, which should be the important thing there.
[00:21:19] Carey D'Souza: So that that was going to be my thing. Is it so is the purity of music gone then?
So now you're basically if I'm going to concert then. Part of the experience is me worrying about how much of an, how much of an influence I'll have or get 10 of my friends, hey, at this point, do this so that we can push this up on the stage. Right. Is that what concerts are becoming? And then to, so where does
[00:21:44] Marco Ciappelli: the music come from?
I think you drew a line. I think you drew a line. So again, and then I want to look back into how technology changed music. If we have time, I have a feeling we're going to have more time. I also wanted to bring us over to something. Sorry. Rafael, based on what Kerry said, so classical music, I think is the perfect example.
You go to a concert of classical music. Unless it's something special. There is no background. You may have candle light. But you want an empty. You know, the Philharmonic, I want a good audio. I don't want to have distraction. I want to hear every single piece of instrument. That is enough. And enough, it's the diminutive in a way.
It's why I am there. It's one sensor experience, which is the music. Then, you can play with that. Um, Hollywood Bowl. They do this... LA Philharmonic, where they show Bugs Bunny and another character and they play the soundtrack live. They do that kind of stuff. It's not the first time. It's on a screen. It's fun, but it's already like, okay, it's kind of a concert.
Maybe it's not. I mean, but I'm still there for the music. So I love this. I love what it can be. But I think, again, there is a big line that you have to draw between concert and a show. It's not the Cirque du Soleil. I go to the Cirque du Soleil, I want to be blown away by a lot of that stuff. But if you put me like digital images in the back, which kind of happened to the Beatles, uh, show, I get distracted a little bit.
It's still cool. But it's not music and yeah, I think
[00:23:34] Carey D'Souza: for me personally, when I go to concert and they're giant screens and I'd love to see sometimes they do a close up of the guitarist playing a lead sequence or the drummer. So you're focusing on the artist themselves and you want to see that. But if you replace that with animations and other stuff and you're like, okay, I'm not.
Yeah, for me, it's in moderation. I guess it's okay. And again, I've not been inside this sphere. So I'm. Speaking completely without having any experience
[00:24:03] Sean Martin: of that. We
[00:24:08] Rafael Brown: saw you brought up an interesting distinction, which is a concert from a show. And I think that that's important because I think that we're going to see more different types of things that are going to take music. into being a show, where it is about the spectacle, it is about the experience. Some of them may be interactive, some of them may be passive, some of them might have audience participation or not, but they're stretching the boundaries to try to figure out how they can use modern technology to stretch...
The price that they ask for a ticket, but also to stretch the notion of what a musical engagement is when you go and even to, to, to have you think, does the concert come to me or do I go to the concert? This thing, you know, because think about that. Now people are thinking, do I go to Las Vegas to see you two?
There's always been residencies, but with greater spectacle, they may think it's easier to go. Well, they physically can't move this thing somewhere else. If you want to see it, you have to go there. There's, there's another thing that is, um, is somewhat correlatable to this, which is ABBA. Um, I don't know how much you guys have been looking at it, but ABBA worked with ILM, um, for several years during the pandemic to build a residency in London that is.
Absolutely different, but correlatable to U2 in Las Vegas because ABBA had effectively virtual avatars built of, of them, of their younger versions. Um, and they set up a concert where what is projected on the stage are their younger versions. Um, they are not visible as their fiscal versions. They have massive Screens viewable from different directions.
They have virtual versions of themselves projected because they are playing their classics from the 70s and 80s, and it is their younger versions. Presented virtually in the real on stage. Spectacle. Show off. And
yeah, like, at a certain point you go like... So, like, they have it set up for essentially virtual puppetry so that they are singing live but their avatars are physically viewable. We, you know, we don't quite have holographic technology to where that can be viewed without, you know, that can be viewed directly, but they have the closest approximation to that.
But it's not a just press button, it is they are behind the stage. But because their physical bodies have aged, they decided to present themselves as they were in their prime.
[00:27:03] Marco Ciappelli: Wow, I didn't know that. I think the question here could be this, and we haven't even... Who is... It's my usual question. What drives what, right?
Is it technology that's like, this is available, do something with it. Do we really need it? Or is a natural evolution of what the art could have been. So it's music looking for this, for other venue to express yourself, or it's just because. It's available. Let's do it. And the audience buy it. I mean, I think this because before we start recording, I found an article that it's going to give the history of music.
Like, you know, first it was live music, 1800 to 940 phonographs and record player that we go into cassette. Then we go in vinyl, then we go into digital, then we go in, synthesizer before that. And, and there, I mean, there is a lot we can talk about. So I, I don't know, maybe it's just a natural evolution of society and we are embracing.
And then there is the old school, like us, that I just want to go in a small venue and, and, and, you know, and hear the noise of the, of the guitar strings when you go from one chord to another, I don't know, discuss. Well, I
[00:28:34] Carey D'Souza: think, so, Mark, I mean, the stuff you pointed out, the vinyl, the tapes, I mean, that's the mode of consumption.
I think all of that has moved on to now streaming, and to an extent, I think, vinyls had a massive resurgence over the last few years, and I think more and more people are getting back into vinyl. And I think we all want our own personalized playlists or personalized albums. And that's, that, that, that revolution came from streaming.
And I think with vinyl, I think some of the stuff that's probably coming back is You know, the concept albums, like Rush used to produce and like Led Zepp used to produce and Floyd used to produce. So you would buy the LP and then you listen to it end to end because every song was either interconnected or was really great.
With streaming, okay, you release an album, you've got four songs, which are good, so you only listen to those four songs. I mean, even if you look at Spotify. It tells you, hey, there's a top song by this artist. So you don't even have to listen to all of their albums. They've already sort of curated that for you.
So it's definitely changing how we produce music and even consume music. Uh, so I think that's that part of it, but in terms of technology like the sphere. So my question there is, is it going to enhance musicmanship or musicianship, or is it going to allow us to take mediocrity and hide it behind, um, this, this massive visual experience where now, because You've got multiple senses being, being, um, sort of attacked and you're not able to pay attention to you.
Okay, that's just like the five chords you're playing for a re damped song.
[00:30:21] Rafael Brown: But visuals are different. I think the question is whether you see Nickelback in the sphere next.
[00:30:32] Sean Martin: Let's put this back on the shoulders of the artists. I think artists first and foremost create, I think most true artists create for themselves. With perhaps then the idea that what they created would impact somebody in a certain way. And so they're reaching deep, creating something from within, presenting that.
Others connect with it and resonate with it and have feelings from that. So I think in its purest form, uh, I think that still exists. And in the benefit of the doubt and others that go into the sphere, is it that what they're pulling out and creating and I'll say leveraging this platform for is still designed to get people to feel and think something based on what, what they created it for in the first place?
I don't think that goes away. I think maybe, maybe the technology impacts our ability to absorb it. Or to find that thing, or we're overwhelmed with too many feelings and, and, and experiences. But I, I think from an artist perspective, I, I, I want to believe that that trueness is still
[00:31:55] Rafael Brown: there at the core. I think that there's a much wider range of expression than there used to be.
And that's not necessarily a bad thing. It sometimes is complicated, and I think that it means that musicians are trying to figure out where they slot in, or has their place changed in life as they grow. But the artists, for example, that go into and do an ABBA thing, like ABBA financed that themselves.
They, you know, they had somebody who reached out to ILM and said, Make us younger. You know, find the fountain of youth and, and, and grow us younger. You know, I, my understanding is that the MSG Sphere reached out and said like, okay, we're going to set up the slate for the next few years. You two, we want you to be first.
You're a good one to launch this. So, you know, you have artists who have established on a certain level who go, I can do this thing. This is my initiative, or they reached out. You're not going to have a random indie artist go into the sphere because they can't command the space. Um, I don't think that, that...
You're going to be like Wembley. Yeah, but like like
[00:33:04] Carey D'Souza: Wembley that you can't just go and perform in Wembley unless you are like, really? Yeah, great
[00:33:08] Rafael Brown: big but you don't have I don't think that you ever have the small space of You know the artist that goes in the place in the club We need that to kind of start things off.
But what we also recognize is that there is a point where Record companies started to do, you know, research and find people on YouTube, and then they started to do it on TikTok. Um, you know, and, and, and sometimes that becomes a way for people to grow. You know, when we worked with Lil Nas X, you know, we, we were cognizant of the fact that Sony found him on TikTok.
You know, he was working in a grocery store and he was doing social media and he was doing his thing like he was talented and he knew what to do but he was discovered in a social media space because he presented something where they said I think we can see how we can grow this and there was points where they thought you know okay he might be a one hit wonder and it might just be this you know old town road and but hey Billy Cyrus likes working with him and they kind of grow that thing and continue to build it but everyone was still going like Is he just a one hit wonder?
But then he was actually a master at social media, and he also had pretty good musical chops, and he was a professional. He was pretty damn good and understood how to work with mocap. He could sit down and do photogrammetry with us, but also he went on past us and the virtual concert that he did with us, and then he went off and was like, okay.
He killed it at the MTV VMAs with Jack Harlow and he's got way bigger than Jack Harlow did. And then he went off and like one of the things I saw him in a year ago was like they made Sony made a deal with Riot Games and League of Legends and they had him do a song and they promoted it by doing a silly thing where he becomes the president of League of Legends and he showed that he could.
He could do comedy on screen as a celebrity and that he had a good song to back it up. And so, like, there are more avenues for artists to grow, but they still have to kill it every time and they can still fall by the wayside every time.
[00:35:28] Marco Ciappelli: Well, time has changed. I mean, you made a good point very quickly, before you need to be to prove that you were not only good.
but marketable. You'll have somebody come in the club, at the Whiskey Go Go or wherever and say, okay, we'll give you a record deal. And then they own pretty much everything about you until you're big enough that you become really, really big. Now they bet on sure win. They don't, rarely they get somebody that is unknown.
They want to say, well, you're bringing already millions of followers. You got this thing that has been streamed a million times. I don't know the guy, the name of that guy, country guy that just became famous for one song. And I'm sure he's good, right? I'm sure he's good. I mean, you still need to be good.
You can't fake it all the way. If you want to go play live, you better be good enough. Right? So the entire streaming. Let's change the way that we do business. Writers is the same thing. If you can throw a couple of chapter out there and people like it, it's kind of like record company, don't take risk anymore.
It may make less money, but they don't take risk.
[00:36:47] Sean Martin: Things have changed for the four of us, right? But if somebody's 16, this is what they know, right? So what, what they're experiencing now isn't, isn't different from before in their, in their mind. And so they're not, they're not latching on to, uh, to nostalgia or some memory of 20 years ago at some concert.
Right. And they're experiencing life and engaging with their peers in different ways and all over the world, perhaps not even in. In a physical location. So I, I almost wish we had somebody younger on this
[00:37:34] Carey D'Souza: to get that perspective. Absolutely.
[00:37:35] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Oh, I had it, Sean. I did an interview with a 24 CEO that launched an app that creates virtual AI driven background and more of your face.
And, and, and it's, uh, And I made that point. I said, but what about photography? What about the old time when we were film, we're using film and, and announced that from a raw perspective. And what is the point? I said that you show yourself in Paris in front of the Eiffel. Why you never experienced that?
And it's like, yeah, but the younger generation don't think that way. And I felt very, very, very old. But, but it's like... They don't. Damn
[00:38:21] Carey D'Souza: it! It's influenza. Damn it! It's influenza generation. It's the same reason why, why people are taking pictures and selfies at concerts and stuff. It's more about, it's more about telling their, their followers online, you know, people they are connected online.
I was here, that's why I'm cool. And not the actual experience. It's more about getting validation from that, which may be what the next generation of people are going to be like.
[00:38:53] Rafael Brown: Well, and to bring this back to Pink Floyd, at a certain point... Always back to Pink Floyd. At a certain point, and I know that we're all fans, old, old, old fans of Pink Floyd.
But, um... It's worth thinking about that era of music as being viewed like classical music for younger generations. That, you know, they view classic rock as like classical music because it's this kind of curious thing that the dinosaurs listened to that is... Longer form and more complex structurally, but not necessarily as catchy or fast or loud as they can listen to now.
And it's, it's music for an older generation. You can handle
[00:39:43] Marco Ciappelli: that stuff.
[00:39:45] Rafael Brown: But like, if you think of it, people don't tend to do that. Anymore. That notion of a concept album, it's absolutely even easier to do it now because you don't have the limits of physical media and you can go, I'm going to create my rock opera and it's going to be two hours and five minutes and you don't have to go, what's the limit of what I can put onto a record or onto a CD?
People used to have to go, This is the maximum amount that I can put onto a CD or, oh, okay, I can do a double album, but they had to fit it. They had to fit the songs and the album to what they could ship. And now they can just go, I can make anything I want to, but the vast majority of them are going, can I make a three minute song that I can have five second clips from that people can mean to?
And, and, you know, do a dance in front of a camera. Well, the,
[00:40:40] Carey D'Souza: the, the, the limitations now has moved from physical medium to the attention span of people. That's what we want. The attention span and what you're competing with your three minute or two minute song and video is competing with 5 million others because there's no barrier to entry or it's lowered for, for example, and then you're competing with that.
And so you, you're, um, so gone are the days of. Remember, anybody remember jetro Take as a break? The whole album was one song.
[00:41:10] Marco Ciappelli: Now you're so old, dude. Jetro . Of course I remember Jetro, I have a, I have a vinyl here if you wanna see it. .
[00:41:21] Rafael Brown: I, I have seen, I have seen Tall Live, so yes, there you go.
[00:41:28] Marco Ciappelli: But see how we are proud of this? And, and you know, it's, it, it is a different generation. Sean plays the philosopher on that note, and I. I'm like, I'm so proud of him. Like I taught him well. I mean, that, that was the whole point. It's like, we're talking as a different generation, but I also feel myself lucky.
And maybe who knows the younger generation in 40 years, they can have the same conversation and be like, dude, this shit now, it's now good. I remember when we used to go to the sphere, we used to put stuff on Tik Tok, that was cool, right? Who knows what they're doing in 40 years from now, but. We got to experience that.
From analog to digital. I'm sorry. I love that. And I'm not saying, I mean, I love a lot of new band, not many, but some I do, I don't like when they're using out. But yeah, but
[00:42:27] Carey D'Souza: you, you made a very, very interesting point. Um, Mark, I think we are. We are a unique generation in the sense that we have heard and experienced what our parents and grandparents have listened to and experienced and have moved along.
And we had our own thing in the 70s and 80s, and now we are experiencing what our kids and grandkids are experiencing. So we are sort of, like, we're sort of straddling between both, um, leaning more towards our, our, our own youth, but understanding, and, and to Sean's point, the kids today, um, And to your point, the kids today don't even know that poor.
So for them, this is what it is. And, uh, I mean, at some point we should have a discussion about cars and driverless cars and all of that stuff, because I remember I just spoke recently to a friend's son. He's not looking to get his driver's license. And I'm like, When I was about to turn 16, the only thing I could think of is, I have to get my license so I could bloody out take dad's car and now they don't, it's the Uber generation, they don't care.
So it's, it's changing quite a bit and we've seen all sides of it, right?
[00:43:40] Marco Ciappelli: Lemme get a second. We're, we're gonna keep going in a few more minutes, but I know that Sean has to jump on another podcast. Uh, a se, a real one. I get to, I get a real one. Sean, we, we, we'll have more the next one, but we'll have more of this conversation.
But one thing we want to hear from you is your favorite band. And general, and your favorite concert you've ever seen. Three questions, then you can go. Oh,
[00:44:07] Carey D'Souza: maybe a better thing. If you're on an island and you're allowed to only take three albums, what three albums are you taking? You're overwhelming
[00:44:14] Sean Martin: me now.
Heavy, heavy question. As we were talking about classical music and long songs and things, the band that kept coming to mind throughout this conversation was Muse. Because they do very operatic, uh, classical, uh, orchestra, uh, type compilations that are often longer, very powerful. And I saw them in concert as well.
Um, so I don't, it's not necessarily my favorite. I kind of like more of the, the harder edge, like the Blink 182 kind of stuff. And I've seen, I am so lonely. Just find me in Calabasas, uh, Mr. Barker. Um, but yeah, I think. I'll say Muse just because, funny enough, it was an experience being at the concert, hearing the play.
So which
[00:45:07] Carey D'Souza: album of Muse? What album of Muse? You allowed three albums.
[00:45:15] Sean Martin: Last three.
[00:45:18] Marco Ciappelli: I don't think we remember anymore the album because we just listened to one song, as you said before, right? We just pick three, three songs from an album
[00:45:28] Sean Martin: and sometimes they're not even our own playlists. I'm listening to other people's playlists.
[00:45:34] Marco Ciappelli: So muse. So you're not that old. You're not that old.
Because for me, if they didn't start playing in the late sixties, I don't even consider them . So, you know, if you, I go with Black Sabbath though. That's, that's my, yeah,
[00:45:49] Carey D'Souza: there you go. That, that's what you take into an island. Black Sabbath. All three
[00:45:52] Marco Ciappelli: albums on Black Sabbath? No, no, all of them. I mean, I, I will probably bring the dark side of the moon.
Pink Floyd. I will probably bring the first Black Sabbath, black Sabbath. Although there are other good. It's tough. I mean, um, I'm also an 80s, uh, air band guy. So Cinderella, it's a band that I, you know, right? Like a long, long winter, a little bit of bluesy, shredding and the high pitch voice.
Sure. But I love a lot of different music. I mean, I wake up in the morning and I listen to, lo fi. I listen to classical, but at the heart, yeah, I. Probably get some heavy stuff. Iron Maiden. Seen Iron Maiden three times in concert in the 80s.
[00:46:40] Sean Martin: I'm a percussionist, so I like a good beat. But I'm also a sucker for a good melody.
[00:46:49] Marco Ciappelli: Alright, you can go. You're released. Thanks for releasing
[00:46:52] Rafael Brown: me to, uh... Have fun, guys.
[00:46:57] Marco Ciappelli: Good seeing you, Sean. Danny, jump on one of
[00:46:59] Carey D'Souza: those shows with you, um, Sean,
[00:47:01] Marco Ciappelli: next time. Okay, so how about you guys? I think we'll talk about AI and all the other things we wanted to talk about in another session. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Let's stay with this, uh, reminiscence.
[00:47:13] Rafael Brown: Yeah, let's stay with music. Um, so the first...
[00:47:18] Carey D'Souza: What do you think, Ralf? Three albums.
[00:47:22] Rafael Brown: Um, let's see here. Well, okay, so, so first I'll say the first, the first concert. The first like commercial concert. So my, my father was a music professor. So I saw bits of concerts, um, particularly African music concerts going back to pretty much, um, when I was born, but, um, The first commercial concert that I saw was, uh, Tina Turner.
Um, my parents, you know, they were going and, you know, and they brought me along because they couldn't get a babysitter. Um, and so, you know, I was, you know, you know, yay big and, uh, and Tina Turner just tore the roof off the place. Um, that was, you know, this is probably like 79. Um, and she was Just like, that was, that kind of, that presence was incredible.
Like, she was an amazing performer. Um, so yeah, just, just to throw a few others out there. Um, probably the thing that I'll always remember is, um, Miles Davis, uh, at the Iron Horse in Northampton a couple of years before his death. He, yeah, there's just like that, that era of, of jazz musicians. There's just nothing like them.
Like there's a whole range of those that I saw, but Miles Davis, um, you know, the end of his prime, no one touched him. Um, uh, in, in terms of, of, you know, maybe a few albums, I would probably take, um, I'd probably take an early Pink Floyd album. Um, you know, maybe something like, like Adam Hartmuther. Um, I'd take, um, I'd take a, an early Bonobo album.
Um, because, um, I, I've seen Bonobo both DJ. And, and live. And, you know, he's still putting out albums, but his, his live stuff, when he brings a band and there's this mixture of, of like almost acid jazz and, and kind of down tempo, uh, electronica is incredible. Um, and, and then, um, yeah, the, the, uh, I, for, for a third, I'd probably I'd probably grab an early, uh, Orbital album.
Um, I, I, I listen to a lot of electronica and, um, yeah, there, there's, um, Orbital in some ways is probably the closest you're going to get to classical music. Um, but yeah, uh, you know, I, I, I'll listen to a lot of, like, uh, drum and bass while I'm working. Um, and, um, You know, Orbital obviously is not, they're more IDM, but yeah, like I, it would probably be a toss up between Orbital and maybe one of the extended, you know, compilations from, from like LTJ Bookum, um, because, you know, the range of folks that he worked with, um, I, I can listen, you know, I, I've done so much development listening to Electronica and either like IDM, trip hop or, or, or drum and bass, um, because I use it to get into the zone.
Um, I, I think with non verbal music behind me.
[00:50:57] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I agree with that. I always have some music in the background and a good electronic ambient. It's, it's, you know, I love, I love Fi actually lately. I, I enjoy that. Even if I listen to it with really good headset. And the lo fi, it's still enjoyable, like Japanese style Tokyo.
It's really cool. And
[00:51:17] Rafael Brown: actually, you know, I, I, I might, I might actually have to do something like, uh, Brian Eno. Um, uh, like, uh, Brian Eno's On Land or, or Music for Airports. Um, because, you know, that's, uh, you know, Kraftwerk and a whole host of others, but Brian Eno's. influenced a whole generation of electronic artists.
All
[00:51:41] Marco Ciappelli: right, Kerry.
[00:51:45] Carey D'Souza: Oh man, I'm all over the place. I mean, so I think, I think for me, I think Pink Floyd, Pulse, that album, it basically it's got just what every, it covers every genre, every decade of their music. Um, that definitely is something I'll never get tired. Um, you've got Sketches of Spain, Miles Davis. That album is absolutely brilliant, again.
Um, anything from B. B. King. The guy is absolutely brilliant. I'm gonna get, I'll take anything from B. B. King. Wow. Big blues guy. Cool. Big blues and jazz guy. So, but again, yeah, again, these are It's kind of hard, but that's, that's what I
[00:52:31] Marco Ciappelli: would take. Wow, we really went on some nostalgia here. I really love it.
So I have a final story. So this, a few months ago, I was, we were covering InfoSecurity Europe in London and I... I just went there a little earlier and was by myself, so I kind of walk all over the places. I mean, I really walk a lot in London. It was June, it was beautiful weather, and I realized I was really close.
I was in the Westminster area. I was really close to the Battersea Plant Station, the one in Animals, Pink Floyd. So I said, all right, I'm going to walk along the Thames and go take some pictures and I'm visioning this abandoned, you know, plant station and it's a huge mall now, right? So you walk through it and I've got excited.
I don't know why, but I just got excited. So I start. Taking out my phone and took pictures and I mean it was cool to see it from the other side. I pictured the pig flying over it and then I crossed the bridge and it's, it's amazing. Brand new mall, like all mixed with technology. You can go all the way up to one of the, of the, um, of the chimneys.
And there's an incubator
[00:53:51] Carey D'Souza: out there too. Yeah, there's an incubator. It's a mixed use, uh, flats. You can,
[00:53:55] Marco Ciappelli: you can. But they did an excellent job in mixing modern and still leaving the old industrial pieces that were there. So the reason why I wanted to say this is It wasn't, it was amazing, right, to, to see what they did with that and preserving, because in London, they're doing a lot of that.
I've seen like old, uh, charcoal deposit near stations that they revamp it and renew it. And they really balance the history with the motor. And I appreciated both. I mean, I appreciated the remembering. Pink Floyd album and I appreciated the new one. So I think the lesson here is I appreciate the sphere and I appreciate everything in in Technology that is doing now.
It's just you know, it's not the same. It's not the same.
[00:54:57] Carey D'Souza: I'm curious Yeah, I think I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm curious. I'm curious. Um, optimistically curious.
[00:55:07] Rafael Brown: Yeah, I, I'll say that, um, I think that things go in cycles and that though we're dealing with a shortening of music, that that doesn't mean that as people get comfortable with digital, that consumption can't change or broadcast can't change and things can't lengthen.
That, if anything, Artists, but also people in pop culture react to the decades before them. And, you know, we can, we can look at, at the teens and 20s that we're in now as a reaction to kind of the 80, the 70s and 80s and 90s, and even the 60s and the notion that as people get into the 20s and 30s and 40s, that they will gradually have reactions to.
the aughts and the tens or teens, that there will be a point where they'll be going, Oh, you know, music was, was too short, um, in, in the teens and, and, and we need to do longer things because we control our attention spans. So I, I'm hopeful that Change will keep happening, but also that people will, people always like to rebel against the things that happened in the five to ten to twenty years before, and read, and younger generations want to define themselves anew against that and against their parents.
And That cycle ensures that we keep ping ponging back and forth all over the place. And the only thing that we know is that no one wants to be exactly like their parents. Even if they love them.
[00:56:56] Marco Ciappelli: True. True. But at least now we have, uh, we, we have, uh, access. To all of that, right? So everything is being recorded. We can go now. I mean, I love old school radio. I said that many times and jazz. You mentioned jazz. I I just love. To play a vinyl behind me, um, Vincent Guaraldi talking about jazz for, Charlie Brown and the Peanuts.
But I also like to just go on a playlist and say, play some jazz from the twenties, the thirties, and hear the scratchy, the different tone of voice. I mean, we can do that. We go back to the power of Accessing anything we want now and and the beauty is that will be the same 30 years from now and maybe yes The music from the now it's considered classic rock.
It would just be like something super cool, which you know We grew up with that. Of course. We have those memory the memory from when you're a teenager They're always stronger than anything else. So yeah, but yeah, cool. Now. I just want to go and play some some music I don't know what but
[00:58:10] Carey D'Souza: Yeah. Put on a vinyl and listen to some music, put on a record, put
[00:58:16] Rafael Brown: on a Pink Floyd album.
I think that it's, that like, we're always going to have this, this dichotomy between, uh, between recorded music and live music. Um, like that, that, that can't really change because there's a sense of, of like, live music as engaging and somewhat unpredictable, and the sense that it's happening in front of you.
You know, whether it's, you know, a, a, a traveling bard that's come to, to a tavern, or it's someone who's going off, you know, like, Oh, I'm Play a show at the Palladium for, you know, for 300 people, um, or a big spectacle. But there's a sense that live music is an event. It's a, it's a doing, it's a being, and that there's, there's a balance between that and the thing that we didn't have.
You know, more than a hundred years ago, the notion that we can take music with us, that we could sit down and go, okay, I'm going to work and have this in the background. You know, there's a point where you go, okay, someone working and having music in the background is basically royalty. Who's like, okay, you guys go play for me.
And, um, and now anyone can do that. And now anyone can take that with them. And now we have a computer in our, in our. In our pockets and we can go, I'd like to listen to this and then it appears. So we have a point where we're very spoiled and that's not a bad thing. We have access, but what we do have to do is chart ways for.
artists to have the ability to continue to make a living between the live and the recorded, and that may change, but we have to ensure that artists continue to make new music, and that we don't get recursive, and that we don't kill off the ability for artists. young artists to make a living to go in to become the U2s 30, 40, 50 years later.
[01:00:17] Marco Ciappelli: But my fear is that with AI, for example, which maybe we'll talk about next time,
we are allowing mediocrity. to succeed. And that was kind of my whole point. Right? I mean, if you start putting all the sauces on top of that, um, there is not the record company that filters who you are anymore. We can all go and play music, we can all write and put it on social media, and now we can leverage generative AI, but I hope that those that excel...
They still have the opportunity to be recognized as someone special, like a true artist. And that doesn't just water down and level everything, because that would be really bad for music. There wouldn't be a Tina Turner, there wouldn't be a Pink Floyd, there wouldn't be... You know, uh, any other of these, there are amazing, there are amazing musicians nowadays.
I just don't want them to disappear amongst the bad ones, right?
[01:01:29] Carey D'Souza: Yeah. Yeah. I think you'll always have excellent artists, um, thriving in any, any situation. And they'll, they'll find ways to use these things as tools to enhance what they have rather than mask their shortcomings. So hopefully. Yep, we, we will, we'll continue to see some brilliant people.
[01:01:54] Rafael Brown: Um, one last thing I want to leave you guys with, um, and we, there's a whole other discussion around AI, but just a few of the words of Nick Cave, um, when he was asked about AI, um, because I think that... It's very relevant from the perspective of songwriting, and he was quite eloquent in capturing some of this when someone sent him a Nick Cave CHAT GPT song, and he basically used that to kind of tear it apart, but he did a good job of explaining why.
Um, and I'll just... Select a few, a few points of this, but, uh, you know, these are, these are Nick Cave's words from his Red Hand Files. Songs arise out of suffering, by which I mean they are predicated upon the complex internal human struggle of creation, and well, as far as I know, algorithms don't feel. Data doesn't suffer.
CHAT GPT has no inner being, it has been nowhere. It has endured nothing. It has not had the audacity to reach beyond its limitations, and hence it doesn't have the capacity for a shared transcendent experience, and has no limitations for which to transcend. What makes a great song is not its close resemblance to a recognizable work.
Writing a good song is not mimicry or replication or pastiche, it is the opposite. It is an act of self murder that destroys all one has to strive to produce, all one has strived to produce in the past. It is those dangerous heart stopping departures that catapult the artist beyond the limits of what he or she recognizes as their own self.
This is part of the authentic creative struggle that precedes the invention of a unique lyric of actual value. It is the breathless confrontation with one's vulnerability. One's perilousness, one's smallness, pitted against a sense of sudden, shocking discovery. It is the redemptive, artistic act that stirs the heart of the listener, where the listener recognizes in the inner workings of the song their own blood, their own struggle, their own suffering.
This is what we humble humans can offer that AI can only mimic. The transcendent journey of the artist that forever grapples with his or her own shortcomings. The thing I love about this and what he's saying is he's reminding us that the interaction between an artist and the listener is a human interaction.
And it's about the artist being vulnerable, understanding themselves, trying to put out something new, struggling with being an artist, and then sharing that and saying, I grew and I made something new. Here's the latest thing I made, listen to it and find something of yourself in it. And
[01:04:49] Carey D'Souza: I would say that about every creative endeavor, right?
I mean, storytelling, um, everything you look at it, I mean, there's got to be some, some sort of personal experience that you've gone through that allow that, that force or that gives you the emotions to write that kind of stuff.
[01:05:09] Marco Ciappelli: Yep. And with that, a lot to think, subscribe, stay tuned, share it. We'll be back with more philosophical and we hope interesting conversation.
Until then, thank you, Kerry. Thank you, Raphael. Thank you, Sean, that left us before. Thank you everybody for listening. Take care, everybody. Thank you. Good rambling. Go listen to some good music, whatever that is.
[01:05:35] Rafael Brown: Bingo.