In this episode of Redefining Society, Marco Ciappelli, alongside Sean Martin and guest Tim Fowler, dives into the societal implications of space exploration and technology, discussing everything from agricultural advancements to the future of off-world resource utilization.
Guests: ✨
Tim Fowler, Offensive Security Analyst, Black Hills Information Security [@BHinfoSecurity]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/roobixx/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/roobixx
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/sean-martin
____________________________
Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
_____________________________
This Episode’s Sponsors
BlackCloak 👉 https://itspm.ag/itspbcweb
Bugcrowd 👉 https://itspm.ag/itspbgcweb
Episode Introduction
Welcome to another thought-provoking episode of Redefining Society. Today, our host Marco Ciappelli takes us on an expansive journey beyond the confines of Earth. Along with Sean Martin and special guest Tim Fowler, we explore the wide-ranging societal impacts of space exploration.
The Fascination with Space
Marco Ciappelli kicks off the episode by highlighting humanity’s perpetual fascination with exploring the unknown. Drawing on cultural references from Italy, he sets the stage for a discussion that ventures far beyond our planet’s atmosphere. Co-host Sean Martin joins the conversation with evident enthusiasm for the journey, setting a tone of curiosity and adventure.
Introduction to Tim Fowler
Tim Fowler, an expert in offensive security from Black Hills Information Security, brings a unique perspective to the table. Having transitioned his focus from traditional cyber security to the cutting-edge domain of space systems, Fowler offers deep insights into why space exploration matters, not just from a technological standpoint but also culturally and societally.
Everyday Technology Rooted in Space
Marco cites several everyday items that owe their existence to space technology, from memory foam mattresses to GPS navigation systems. Tim elaborates on how technologies developed for space missions have trickled down to enhance various aspects of our daily lives—a clear testament to the far-reaching benefits of space exploration. For example, modern agriculture heavily relies on data from space for soil analysis, weather forecasting, and even autonomous machinery.
The Economics and Politics of Space Exploration
Fowler explains that space exploration is moving faster than ever, primarily due to private companies like SpaceX and Blue Origin. These organizations have democratized access to space, thus enabling rapid advancements that were once thought impossible. However, he also emphasizes the complexities involved in sending humans to space, noting the high stakes and intense caution required.
The Moon and Beyond
Marco and Tim discuss the intricacies of missions to the moon and Mars. Tim highlights the importance of off-world resource utilization as a pivotal step for sustained space habitation. Drawing inspiration from Daniel Suarez’s books "Delta V" and "Critical Mass," he discusses the potential of lunar and asteroid mining to provide the necessary materials for building space infrastructure.
Challenges and Concerns
As the conversation evolves, Sean raises valid concerns about the implications of space technology becoming monopolized by a few powerful entities. Tim acknowledges this, explaining that while technological advancements are exhilarating, they also bring about significant societal and ethical considerations.
Regulatory and Social Considerations
Marco and Tim touch on future regulatory landscapes and the societal shifts that will be needed as human activities extend further into space. The concept of needing a new social contract for space emerges, encompassing laws, ethical guidelines, and collaborative international efforts.
As the episode draws to a close, Tim shares his excitement about the rapid advancements and burgeoning opportunities in space exploration. Both Marco and Tim agree that while we are on the brink of a new era, societal readiness and regulatory frameworks will play crucial roles in shaping this next chapter of human history.
Final Thoughts
Fascinating, insightful, and expansive—today's episode is a compelling reminder of how interconnected our lives are with the broader universe. Whether you're captivated by technology, intrigued by societal evolution, or simply a space enthusiast, this discussion offers a panoramic view of our present and future frontiers.
_____________________________
Resources
____________________________
To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
Watch the webcast version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTUoWMGGQHlGVZA575VtGr9
Are you interested in sponsoring an ITSPmagazine Channel?
👉 https://www.itspmagazine.com/advertise-on-itspmagazine-podcast
The Boundless Frontier of Space and How What Happens Up There Affect Us Down Here: Exploring the Societal Impacts of Space | A Conversation With Tim Fowler and Sean Martin | Redefining Society with Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
_________________________________________
[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: All right, everybody, welcome to another episode of Redefining Society, which today include a nice trip outside of the, of the walls, as we say in Italy, you know, there are all the walls in the town. So when you go outside, During the weekend you go outside of the walls. Here we go outside of the atmosphere, I guess We go all the way up.
We're gonna go in space and to do that Uh, we got Tim Fowler, which uh Sean and I which uh, he joined me on this episode
[00:00:36] Sean Martin: I crashed this party to space. I couldn't resist. Oh, you're going space. I'm coming up early for this one
[00:00:43] Marco Ciappelli: Very good. And, uh, and Tim, which actually joined us on one of our event coverage not too long ago, and, uh, it was about cyber security in space.
So today we're not going to touch much on cyber security, although I'm sure, uh, it's, uh, will be inevitable. Uncertain moments, but we're going to talk about why are we going to space and how are we actually living in our Society with a lot of stuff that we brought back from space. I'm not talking about Lunar stones or anything like that or meteorites.
I'm talking about stuff that we use every day So team knows a lot about it. We were chatting after the conversation last time and I said dude Come back and, uh, and the chat. So, Sean, thank you for joining us.
[00:01:28] Sean Martin: First of all, thanks for letting me.
[00:01:30] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. We'll see if I kick you out or
[00:01:33] Sean Martin: I don't know how much I'll get to say, but I'm going to enjoy listening anyway.
[00:01:36] Marco Ciappelli: Oh, you got a lot to say. I know you like space too. And team. Welcome back.
[00:01:41] Tim Fowler: Thank you guys for having me back. I enjoyed it last time. Um, and, but I'm actually really, really excited to talk about, um, kind of society in space today, because this is, these are the, some of the deep questions. Like, even when we talk about, I talk about cyber security in space, the questions like, Why?
Why does it matter to me? And things like that. And so I'm really, really excited to have a chance to kind of pull that apart today and look at some of the interesting aspects of our modern society and how it's a space based society.
[00:02:13] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And let's start from the planet Earth, though, in particular, a couple of words about you.
We mentioned cyber security already, but we can, you know, we can give an idea of why you, you are in this field or in this space. Oh, I'm doing the quote.
[00:02:30] Tim Fowler: Yeah, the pawns are free today.
[00:02:33] Marco Ciappelli: So yeah, a little bit about you and, uh, and everybody knows Sean, so we don't need to introduce him.
[00:02:39] Tim Fowler: Yeah, uh, so by trade, I'm an offensive security analyst for Black Hills Information Security, um, specializing in offensive security.
Uh, all forms of offensive security testing, uh, primarily penetration testing, red team, things like that. Um, it's pretty much been my entire career as learning how to break things strategically, uh, find vulnerabilities and weaknesses so that organizations can better secure themselves, uh, against the inevitable, um, threats that are out there.
Um, but over the last year or so, uh, I've really kind of been taking those, that skill set and that focus and, and looking at the application of space systems and, um, cause I kind of, uh, look at that as like, it's, uh, the next frontier, if you will, um, from a, from a security perspective where we really need to be focusing on because we're having more and more dependency, um, on space systems and just the, uh, the, the values and the benefits that, uh, Existing in a space culture, um, provides us as citizens of Earth, um, not just now, but also looking to the future.
And so that's really where, uh, predominantly I've been researching, like I said, for, for the last year. Um, so, and it's been, it's been quite an adventure, um, and a deep dive. I've learned a lot. Uh, I've gotten scared a few times, uh, about like, wow, this is just a little more simplistic than it actually should be, um, and stuff.
But yeah, again, thank you guys for having me and giving me this opportunity to just to talk.
[00:04:04] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, absolutely. This is a, most of our conversation You know, like I was talking yesterday with Dr. Joseph, he's another cyber security guy, and he has a cyber cafe podcast. And I said, that's the way I like it. It's like, we're sitting on a cafe somewhere.
And it just happened that we recorded the conversation, right? This is what it is. So Sean, Anything, uh, in your mind you want to, you want to get the first, uh, stub with some why questions?
[00:04:35] Sean Martin: Oh, you're letting me lead.
[00:04:36] Marco Ciappelli: Um Yeah, go for it. I already talked enough.
[00:04:40] Sean Martin: Well, the, the, the thing that strikes me is there, there's a lot of general media coverage on things like AI.
And, uh, certainly when When the cloud, uh, well, smartphones and the clouds, a lot of technologies, I guess, my point is get a lot of consumer and then therefore a lot of media attention. Um, yet you kind of mentioned this in the lead in that. There's a lot of space technology that maybe doesn't get a lot of exposure, yet it's deeply ingrained into a lot of things that we do and use as other technologies.
So I'm wondering, is there, is it because it's secret or is it because it just, So integrated that we don't really notice it or what's your guess?
[00:05:36] Tim Fowler: It's kind of an interesting question is because you and to really answer it, we have to kind of go back to, um, some of the beginning of, uh, specifically in the U.
S. and our space heritage and things like that. You know, we, we, we sought to, to, to. To explore space and, and put a man on the moon in the, in the sixties. And, um, and it was kind of out of this necessity, um, in the, in the cold war, uh, space race that we had with the Russians and we were basically getting beat, um, and stuff like that.
And so we had this kind of government nation, uh, kind of uprising to, to support this, that we wanted to go to space. We wanted to do this. We wanted to put a man on the moon and stuff like that. Um, and that happened, um, and everybody was excited and stuff, but. It's just slowly. The interest just kind of started fading from a public perspective.
You know, there's lots of media coverage. We essentially society. We kind of became desensitized to all the amazing things that were happening in space. And then you'd have, um, Events that would happen that would, you know, kind of spike that interest again. And then we, we go back down, you know, there's not a, I mean, if you ask your average person that's been around that was born in, let's say the sixties or seventies, like what exciting happened in us space from 1969 to 1986.
And like, nobody really has an answer. Once you get to 1986, it's like, uh, Challenger. We remember that, you know, the tragedy that that was and stuff. And then it's, we see this kind of, you know, we go back down and it's up the Hubble Space Telescope brings out something new for us. Um, and so as society, we've just kind of pushed space.
You know, it's just not, it's out there like it's this abstract concept that it doesn't really impact our lives or we don't think about. We think of it purely from like a scientific research. Some people may look at it. It's just billions and billions of dollars wasted on research and stuff. But when we actually look at our modern lives, as we talked about just a little bit ago.
That so much of what happened in space has come down and kind of just intertwined itself and I think, you know, Like we were talking about like if you sleep on a smart or a memory foam mattress Like that's a that's a space material that was developed with NASA if you happen to have Tang with your morning breakfast You know, that's that's a that's a famous one but even things down to our our communication system stuff But even like the, you know, uh, the fruits and the vegetables that you, that you may consume in a daily basis.
Most of those are modern ones are going to be impacted in some way by space because we're using the technology in space to be able to monitor, um, our agricultural, um, outputs and stuff, looking for, uh, trends within, in, in soils and, and environments and stuff to make sure that we're able to get the highest yields possible.
And I mean, like, I love, I love farmers because they're like, most people think of them as like, really just simple people, but some, a lot of the modern farmers, they have the most technological setups. They've got, uh, like, you know, auto navigation tractors using GPS and stuff to make sure that they're getting, um, you know, hitting the same spots all the time and using all of this data, um, that is actually produced, uh, from our space systems to be able to maximize the efficiency and the yields that they're getting.
Um, And so, you know, obviously communications is a big one, you know, GPS. It's like, how does anybody get anywhere? How people use paper maps is just dumbfounding to a lot of people. Um, and stuff we've become just really, really, really reliant on the technologies that are in space, but we don't actually think about where they come from.
We don't think about how, like what they're actually doing. And we also don't think about the ramifications in our lives. If those aren't there anymore, um, it's just, you know, it's kind of like you go flip a power switch and you just expect the light bulb to come on and it's not till it doesn't come on you go, oh, there's something wrong.
[00:09:40] Sean Martin: And real, real quick, Marco, because I had a chat with a gentleman, Philip Miller, who happens to be a farmer. And he's also chief information security officer in the tech world. But he and I had a conversation about what you just described, the tractors, automation, using data from space, using GPS from space, using soil analysis and other data from space to really help him build a farm of the future that can really dial in.
The best produce with the best rates and understanding, and that's just his farm, but understanding the co ops and then the larger supply chain and delivery and all that stuff, a lot of it's driven by space. And it is a fascinating conversation.
[00:10:23] Tim Fowler: Yeah, there's a, there's a YouTube channel that I watch. Um, it's a, it's a young man, um, in Iowa.
Um, and he's helping, you know, it's, it's, it's, uh, corn and soybean farm and stuff like that. And so, but, and I just looking at all, like, how they're, how they're utilizing, um, all of these technology systems and things like that, like, they're just doing it because it's the most, it makes them the most efficient as possible and stuff.
And it's like, All of these, these little gains that we're making in society are possible because we've, we've, we took the risk. We, we went to space, we, we tried a bunch of stuff, we failed at a bunch of stuff, but we learned at the same time about things that, that work and, and how to make them work and be resilient, um, in that kind of environment.
And then now we're getting to reap the benefits, you know, in some cases, 30 years later, um, uh, from that continuously.
[00:11:19] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. And I mean, We can bring it to the philosophical aspect of why we go to space. I mean, you can just mention the famous, uh, deliver a speech from, uh, JFK when he said, you know, why do we go to Mount Everest?
Because it was there. And because it's part of who we are. Exploring and, and making things, uh, I mean, this desire to, to go there and, and you can compare going to space with what it was going to go around the world with, you know, wooden boats and sailing and, and risking their life and taking chances. And that's how we grow as a, as a society.
[00:11:58] Tim Fowler: Yeah, it's it's you know, I do believe that we have this innate human characteristic We're of you know, we are naturally explorers and we want to push the boundaries And we want to like we you know, not to Not to provoke the flat earthers But we like we want to look over the edge and see like see what's beyond the horizon Um, and that, that's important, um, because if you, I mean, if you look at the history of mankind, like that's how we have advanced technologically, um, is, is pushing the boundaries, trying new things, uh, not being afraid to fail, um, you know, because like it's, you're going to, to fail, um, a lot of times there's one of my favorite guilty measure, uh, guilty pleasure movies is, uh, Nicolas Cage and, and National Treasure.
And there's a line in there that's like, you know, Thomas Edison. Took him 2000 times to, to learn how to make the incandescent light bulb, um, and stuff. And I don't know if that number is actually true, but it's, it's stuck with me. It's like, it, these things take a long time. They stuck. Um, but yeah, from a, from a, just a innate human characteristics, like we, we want to, we want to be able to explain the unknown.
We want to be able to understand it. We want to be able to, to reach out in this case, we're talking about to the cosmos, um, and see, you know, what, what is out there? Because, um, You know, there are, there are people that don't believe that we're alone. Um, as, uh, you know, within the solar system or within the universe and stuff, there's others that are like, hey, we don't know, but it's like, why don't we go find out?
Like, let's, let's, what do we have to do to, to figure this out? And, you know, there's, um, plans to colonize Mars and, which is controversial. And, you know, especially when you look back at what some of the issues that we hit are. Dealing with here on earth. It's like, why, why focus over there and stuff? But it's like, it's, it's, it's going to take these, uh, intrepid explorers, uh, to, to go and push these boundaries for us to be able to, um, really understand what we're fully capable of as humans.
And it's just, we've seen this time and time and time and time again through history, um, and, and space and, uh, interplanetary stuff. Those are just kind of the next iteration. For us. Yeah.
[00:14:15] Sean Martin: I'm wondering, Tim, this may be an odd question, but I don't know if there are any examples that I can think of even to kind of highlight what I'm trying to get at is, is, is there a point that it's Too far, too much, too soon.
I'm just wondering, do we pierce, do we pierce something that we can't put back together?
[00:14:40] Tim Fowler: Do we inadvertently create a black hole by turning on the large hydron collider at CERN? Um, no. Yeah, so like theoretically, yes. Um, but I think in practicality, no. Um, with, I say no with one exception. It depends on what you're prepared to lose.
Because we could push, we could push the boundaries and we could load a rocket up and we could send somebody to Mars today. That would be too soon. Um, because we don't have the infrastructure, we don't have the understanding and stuff like that. Um, you know, it's, you're always going to have individuals.
That are going to want to to kind of flirt with this limit of of too soon and stuff like that. Um, and there, you know, if we do cross over that boundary, yeah, they're going, they're going to be, uh, uh, in most cases, negative repercussions, um, and, and stuff. But I think for them, I think for the most part, um, We operate in a way that we still have this sense of caution.
Like we need to make sure that we're doing things safely. And once we get up to that cusp, it's like, okay, now we've got to make these informed decisions and stuff. Um, you know, sometimes you have to unclip your rope and just, Um, you know, you just, that's, that's the only way you're going to move forward and stuff.
And there comes risk with that. Um, but I don't really kind of see this kind of, um, us going over the edge just because out of ignorance. Um, and go like, Oh, well, we shouldn't have done that. Too late. Um, I mean, you could argue, um, from a historical standpoint, um, the Manhattan project would probably be kind of a, the, the close approximation of what we're talking about.
I was like, should we have even done that? Once, uh, once that Pandora's box was opened, that's it. Society fundamentally changed, um, not for the good, not for better or for worse. Like, it just. Um, and so that's, you know, things that we're going to have to look at, um, as a future because it's not just the technological side and stuff like that.
We have to look at it from the from the emotional side, from the well being side of like, you know, how are, how are people going to be able, um, to. Digest this, understand this to be able to process what's, what's, what's happening or what's going to happen, um, and how it's going to impact their lives. You know, we gotta look at things very holistically, but, uh, I really don't, I see people.
I see people like Elon Musk, um, it was the person that would come like that's he's going to push the boundaries, um, but there's no track record that he's going to push the boundaries to a point where, um, we're going to be like, yeah, we've gone too far, um, you know, it's still It's, it's, it's, it is a rapid acceleration, but it's still got this, you know, safety net or this caution to it.
And it's like, Hey, we are, we are taking all these things into consideration. Um, you know, maybe not pleasing everybody in the process of doing it, but like, that's, I mean, when you, when we talk about advancements in human abilities and capability, it's, there's typically, that's, that's kind of the history that we're, we're looking at is where people just.
Going, just, just pushing the envelope. Um, maybe a little faster than everybody else would like, but at the end of the, they're like, okay, it's safe. You guys can come, you can come join us now.
[00:18:05] Marco Ciappelli: So this, this make me think too, like there's three things may maybe more. So there is a, the economic factor, 'cause it costs a lot of money.
Like when you blow a test, a Saturn or or an X or space, um. It cost money. He's like, all right, it exploded, but hey, it was success. A lot of people are going to be like, what the hell? That wasn't that blew up But it was success because maybe you got that little farther up, right? So there is that then there is The technology right that do we have we may have the money, but we may not have the technology.
I don't know I can think about Uh, going to find America again, you know, we, we may have the money from the King of Portugal and Queen, but we maybe, you know, we had a better boat that would have been easier, maybe. And then the political will. So let's put these three together. What do you think is holding us?
More right now from making that faster step.
[00:19:09] Tim Fowler: Um, so if you, if you look at, if you look at the history of, of space, um, I will tell you, we are moving faster than we ever have. Um, and that is thanks to. Uh, organizations like SpaceX and Blue Origin and, uh, United Launch Alliance, and, you know, a lot of these commercial, non government entities, at least here within the United States.
Um, and so that's 1 thing that's kind of helped is, is the democratization of space being making it accessible to more people. Um, and, and so that, you know, these, these players can, I mean, it got space. I, I, I got to see a, a, a Falcon nine launch, um, at the Cape, uh, just a week or so ago, um, and like they're launching all the time, like at a, at a cadence and that NASA never would have conceived.
Um, and so we, we are, we are actually moving really, really fast. Really fast. But then you look at something like the Artemis missions, um, which is NASA's, uh, plan to return people to, to the moon. And we're getting delays and we're getting setbacks and stuff like that because that one is moving significantly slower.
Um, and there, but there's one fundamental key there, difference between what the SpaceX is doing and what, uh, Artemis is doing. In fact, we're trying to send people back to the moon, not just to touch the soil. But to actually stay there, um, and stuff. And so when you add that human life element to it, everything changes.
Now, SpaceX has the, uh, Dragon crew, um, capsule and they've, I think 10 or so, uh, missions to the international space station now, which has just been incredible. Um, but it is like, if you look at those two kind of two different. Things. It's like, how can we have SpaceX that's sending people to the International Space Station on a very FRI and then NASA's like dragging their feet and stuff like that.
[00:21:03] Marco Ciappelli: Is a different height of space, right? One, one. It's in that orbit. And the other one is, yeah, so you take gravity.
[00:21:12] Tim Fowler: But here's the, here's the thing. We, we, we, we put people in the moon in the sixties and the, the crazy thing is like the, the Apollo engineers, they actually wrote the book, here is how to send people to the moon and you can actually go and download it.
Um, uh, it's a, it's a document and I don't, I can't remember the actual publication number, um, and stuff, but like, it's like, here's everything you have to do, um, and with Artemis, we're like. We're gonna throw that out there. We're just not gonna reference that we're gonna do and and and there's pros and cons that part of it Is because so much about Artemis has just been completely untested.
Um, it's new technologies It's new processes and things like that And that's as you know, it's like if we could do it the old way and we're no we're gonna get these results But we're not necessarily pushing the envelope And so we have to like that's the kind of balance that we have to do of like hey, how much can we push?
Without Actually holding us back from being able to accomplish our mission and stuff like that. And NASA is an interesting one because it's, uh, you know, it's a government fund. It's a publicly funded organization. Um, and so they have a lot of requirements. There's a lot of moving pieces. I have a ton of respect for everybody that's involved in these missions and works at NASA.
And stuff, but it's just a historically slow moving process when you have, you know, everything's getting bid out and everything's, you know, going through just a standard kind of, uh, military industrial complex, if you will. Whereas like, or SpaceX and Blue Origins are like, yeah, we're just doing it ourselves.
Like, we're just, we're just, they're just throwing money at the problem. Um, and they're going like, hey, we're going to do this and we're going to do this faster than anybody else. Um, and the results of, you know, kind of this failing fast, Um, that's what's actually getting us the significant advances that we're seeing in space.
[00:23:05] Sean Martin: I'm wondering, Tim, um, so when I, when I picture this new frontier, um, I, I see a few key players and looking at the U. S. primarily. Um, And the government's leveraging a lot of these commercial players that are in my mind for this. And, I don't know if we have things we can look at in the past, but uh, the view that I have is a small number of really wealthy people are gonna have the most control over this new world.
That earth will become tremendously reliant upon. We're already there. We talked about the farming. If there's a level of control there rather than a distributed control by society. I don't know if we'll get there and we just need to have this level, high level of investment.
[00:24:00] Tim Fowler: Yeah. So, so that's a, that's a concern, uh, for sure.
Um, You know, uh, the best example that I can think of, and this is one that actually I'm super excited for and super terrified for at the same time. Um, so if we look at it, uh, from our cellular communications here in the United States, there's only about three primary telco providers. Um that, They've monopolized the the entire cell phone market and stuff and Elon and SpaceX has looked at and go.
No, we're not okay with this So they just recently launched their first batch of direct to sell Satellites, um, which will be providing direct cell phone communications, data, voice, stuff like that. Uh, essentially to your iPhone or to your Android phone and stuff without the need of having the terrestrial cell phone infrastructure and stuff.
Um, and so now you're going to have uh, cell phone coverage anywhere that you have coverage in the sky. that's awesome from a technological standpoint and stuff, but um, you now have them Space SpaceX and Starlink is the the primary internet provider in space Amazon's project hyper is coming to compete with that and stuff, but they're They're not there yet.
Like, there's something about being first to market that's going to be an advantage. And then you're going to add in the capability of direct to sell, which could take out, you know, really hit the American, you know, the telcos and stuff like that, that monopoly and stuff. And it's like, and it's controlled by one company, one individual.
And so that is definitely something that is um, The nice thing is that, you know, with, uh, with the rules and regulation of space and the international collaborations, like you can't own space, you can't do things. So there's nothing stopping somebody else from going up and competing, except for money, time, resources, stuff like you're really going to have to just duplicate and replicate, um, what, you know.
Someone like, uh, Elon and and Starlink has done. Um or what, uh, Amazon is doing with project Kyper. Or and there's other ones out there. Um but yeah, it's definitely one of those things that. Um as from a society standpoint as we continue to be more and more reliant on this. And we're it's like, once these switches start getting flipped, like, it's, It's now we're up a whole new level and it's completely transparent to us.
Um, we do become much more, um, beholden to those, the, the powerful, um, in that, in that space, pun intended. Um, and, and that's definitely a concern that I have. And it's like, it's the double, it's a double edged sword because from a technology side, I'm like, yes, this is awesome. But from a societal side, um, and just, uh, you know, piece of mind side, it's like, man, I don't.
I don't like having these digital overlords. I mean, we already have them. We have Google, we have Amazon, you know, whatever, Facebook, Meta. Um, and so we're already kind of subject to that. Um, but it'd just be a little, a little bit different.
[00:27:09] Sean Martin: And I'm, I'm quickly, Marco, the, this idea of first to market, lots of Falcon 9 launches.
Satellites for this, satellites for that star links here and there. Is there enough space and space? ? This might be a silly question. I don't know. I'm, I'm picturing this, this slice that's just being filled with big things and medium sized things, micro things. So,
[00:27:36] Tim Fowler: so there the, the answer is yes. But we still have to be careful, um, because we, we are dealing with a, I mean, we're already starting to see like just more and more stuff, especially in low Earth orbit, which is predominantly where things are going to be, um, that are service providing to us as users.
Um, you know, we're going to see a bunch of bunch of, um, things continue to populate that area in space. Um, now what the, the, the thing that I. I think is going to happen is what we're really going to start to see is, is, um, we're going to see a bunch of population growth in lower orbit and then as systems, um, become outdated as they, their orbits decay and stuff like that, we're going to just see kind of, uh, replace, replacements go up higher, higher power, more capability and stuff.
And so I think what you're actually going to see is you're going to see this, like, yeah. Big population boom and then we're going to stabilize and then hopefully we'll actually be able to decrease the the population density in terms of satellites and stuff like that as technology increases because what we've what we've gone from is this monolithic like, um, you know, 100, 200 ton satellites and stuff to these little satellites Like CubeSat things that are just, you know, can fit in the size of your hand and stuff like that.
And so it's like, hey, we can, you know, we can put a hundred of those up instead of one of those, uh, from a cost perspective and have much more resiliency and stuff. Um, I, I do expect we'll kind of see a trend going, not back to monolithic, but more, um, uh, kind of happy medium. It's like, hey, we, we can do, uh, we can do, uh, We could function with less, um, and so we don't necessarily need as much, but it's definitely a concern, um, especially from a space debris perspective, um, which is a legitimate, legitimate concern.
Um, and there's some fantastic organizations that are trying to help solve this problem because, you know, what happens when a piece of sand flying at 22, 000 miles an hour hits your satellite? It's now a bunch of little satellites is what it becomes. And then, you know, there's this thing, um, You know, concern the Kessler syndrome, where it's, it's basically, if you want to think out of like a nuclear chain reaction, um, where you go and split atom, protons come off those protons that would hit additional atoms and you have this chain reaction.
The same concern is that with space debris is you. If you can generate a single large enough, uh, uh, instance of space debris that is able to permeate out, and then it's just going to cascade and keep destroying, um, more and more objects in space. Um, and so we're, we're having to kind of manage that we're having to figure out plans to account for that.
So, like, if I want something today. Uh, even like a CubeSat, I'm the guy to make sure I have a 10 year deorbit plan to make sure that we can get it into the atmosphere, get it to burn up, uh, so that it's not, you know, causing a problem for other people. Um, but these are some of the, these are some of the challenges that we have to, to work for.
There's entire companies that are, uh, Um, their entire mission and stuff is, is being able to like, deescalate, um, potential collisions and impacts between various spacecraft and, and, uh, to prevent that orbital debris and stuff. It's like, it's we're breeding new companies and new requirements. It's like, Hey, it's like, this wasn't a concern 20 years ago, but now it's like, Hey, we got like.
7, 000 satellites up there right now. Like they're all yeah, we probably you know, we're actually generating just entire like Jobs that just didn't exist 20 years ago As a result of our being in space,
[00:31:23] Marco Ciappelli: but these also because we don't simply learn from the past Right. I mean a there is three cars who gives a shit in the streets Then they become billions and now we have problem CDs.
And I mean, is it always like, let's just yeah, whatever we got.
[00:31:41] Tim Fowler: Well, I mean, the answer is always just throw more at it. It's just more,
[00:31:46] Marco Ciappelli: but then we have to regulate. Then there is a problem.
[00:31:49] Tim Fowler: Yeah. You know, and like I said, like, looking at the, the, the, um, This is kind of the pros and cons of, um, space where we go like used to have these monolithic satellite and we still do geostationary satellites and stuff.
They're, they're, they're huge. They're massive, um, just as you would expect. But it's like, when we started figuring out, I was like, Hey, we could split that mission up. A hundred times. Right. And then it drives our cost way down, like significantly way down, especially when you're talking about, um, you know, you're paying by the kilogram, which if on a, on a SpaceX mission, um, I think it starts at about 300, 000 a kilogram.
Um, and so it's like, okay, well, if I've got 100 kilograms satellite or I have 100 kilograms worth of satellites with, okay, that's the same cost, but, um, you know, if that monolithic has a failure, I now have to send another 100, 000 or 100 kilogram satellite backup to replace it. Whereas with the smaller stuff, we'll just send another.
I mean, that's what's happening with Starlink. That's a perfect example. Every Falcon 9 launch is 21, 22, 23 Starlink satellites. They can literally, like, they can just fall out of the sky, and Starlink's like, well, that's unfortunate. We'll just launch another batch. Um, because they've been able to drive that cost down and stuff.
Um, and that's kind of been the answer. It's like, it solves a lot of technological problems, but at the same time, now we have high space highways that are getting heavily congested, um, with traffic. And it's like, Hey, maybe we should just like, have like a train or a bus that can have a bunch, you know, uh, which means you getting almost back into the monolithic side of things.
[00:33:33] Marco Ciappelli: So you went there and I want to, I want to take, and I know we're going to go over 35, whatever, um, minutes. So I want to talk about a little bit about the moon, and it's kind of like connect with the technology that you're talking about, like, you know, nice people have hypothesized, you know, a station going around and then it's from there from the planet and from there you go to the moon, then from the moon, you go to Mars, and then you go in stages, because let's face it, I mean, despite the advancement of the technology, you still need a shit load of power and gas and whatever you use to get out of the atmosphere.
That's the cost of the by the kilogram, right? So, Now we're talking about going back to the moon. Okay, once you get out of the, of the gravity and you, you enter into the, the, the moon gravity, you know, we've seen Apollo 8, you know, go around and they've gone around and stuff, but then we get to build stuff over there.
Right? We got a, we got a, thankfully, you get three printers and, you know, fun water. We have water on the moon, but I mean,
[00:34:37] Sean Martin: you need a McDonald's and a Starbucks. My point is, we
[00:34:40] Marco Ciappelli: don't have this little Okay, go, because I'm going from this small little thing that you're talking about, the Starlink, to like, okay, we're talking about Sending people.
[00:34:51] Tim Fowler: How do we have an actual space, a society in space? And so you, you hit on the fundamental piece of it. Um, and, and it's the mass. Like, how do we have, how do we get enough mass into orbit, So that we can actually start to build things and stuff and What my my hands down my favorite author Daniel Suarez He's written two books He's written a bunch of books and I highly recommend all of them start at the very beginning with freedom But his his most two recent one the first one's called Delta V and the second one's called critical mass And I don't want to spoil those for any, for any of your listeners, but if you are interested in space and where I truly believe the future is going, read these two books.
Um, because it, it is centered around, uh, Delta V is centered around actually asteroid mining, um, which is something that we are actively, uh, looking at doing, trying. We've, we've recovered, uh, regolith from asteroids already, um, as society, um, and, uh, critical mass continues on that, Um, and you're doing lunar mining of Regolith, um, and to be able to produce, uh, these fundamental building blocks of, um, uh, alloys and different things like that.
Because what's going to happen, the problem is like, we can't launch all this stuff up from there. It's just too cost prohibitive. But if we can go to say the moon and. Figure out how to refine the, the, the regolith, pull out all the components, uh, the, the elements and stuff and start making space steel and stuff like that.
It's like, you know, we don't make stuff out of steel hardly for, for aerospace because it's so heavy, but once it's in orbit or outside the atmosphere, it doesn't really matter how heavy it is, um, other than acceleration, uh, purposes and stuff. And so, Um, this is one of the things like for me, us going back to the moon, um, with Artemis is so incredibly important because, uh, it is going to take us being able to establish some kind of off world resources because we just, it's not cost prohibitive for us to be able to, um, um, Launch that much mass, um, in a reasonable amount of time at a reasonable amount of money for us to, to do anything.
And then it's like, oh, we're having to account for all these failure rates and stuff like that. Um, and so, yeah, I wouldn't go read those books. They're fantastic. I don't, I don't want to spoil them for you. Um, uh, but they, they hit on this exact subject and I think, I think, um, I think he's done it when he's done a tremendous amount of research.
Um, but I would say he's like 90 percent to what the future is now. How long it takes us to get there. I don't know, um, and stuff. But when you look at what all these space agencies around the world are working on, um, in terms of, of, like, taking the steps for us to being able to do this, um, once we're able to get an established off world resources.
That's it. That's the key. Um, and there's, and so the reason that the second book is called critical mass is once you establish that critical mass in, in situ, um, now you're, you're the king, um, whoever, whoever is able to do that first, um, is going to be able to define how we move forward in the future.
[00:38:13] Marco Ciappelli: It's like that tipping point.
[00:38:15] Tim Fowler: It's very much a tipping point. Yeah, I mean, uh, in the book, there's a, there's an entire off world economic system that is backed by the intrinsic value of those resources. Um, and so, you know, it's, I mean, there's, there's a, there's a, it's a complicated thing, um, and stuff, but.
Like I said, I encourage you to read it and stuff, but like, at the end of the day, having resources in space, that is, like, if you want to win the Space Race 2. 0, that's how you do it. Um, because you're not gonna, you're not gonna be able to lift it off, off of Earth. You can do as much as you can, um, but you're really good.
The goal would be to launch as much as you can so that you can harvest, manufacture, refine, and manufacture the other stuff that you need.
[00:39:08] Marco Ciappelli: I think we should finish this conversation, which, of course, could be never ending, because, I mean, we can talk about so many things, like, now that you're done, now that we went from what we have on the planet, that come from the first, you know, NASA mission, you know, Mercury, Apollo, Gemini, and all of that, and then we talked about what's going on around, now that we went to the moon, because, like, we use a tritury that went there, and now you can talk about recreating You know, society over there.
We had conversations, Sean and I, with people who talk about medicine in space, right? Like, uh, if you go to Mars, how then are you going to somebody feel sick? Like, oh yeah, it's seven months we're gonna send you something. Like, yeah, you're gonna have to do it now, right? Um, and then regulation. And then we talk about law in space.
And I mean, so there is an entire recreating an entire social contract on how society can work in space, which I would love to have this conversation
[00:40:12] Tim Fowler: and it's, it's, you know, it's, it's something that I'm actually, you know, kind of, uh, like, yeah, Looking into from because so much of the cyber security stuff that I've been dealing with in ultimately the part of the way we solve those problems is through the regulatory through the policies through the international agreements is going like here's how we have to do this and stuff and it's definitely something I'm interested in because especially when you consider like based off of international agreements and stuff like nobody can own space.
It's like I can't like just. You know, stick of like, yeah, we stuck a flag on the moon. We win, uh, the original space race, but we don't own it. Um, and so having that international collaboration and cooperation, um, is going to be absolutely pivotal to the success. And then, you know, when, what happens when we hit the space wars, um, and I'm not talking like necessarily star wars and stuff, but where you have, uh, you know, billionaire companies or trillionaire companies or nation states and stuff competing for the same resources and stuff.
It's like, you know, Territorial disputes even though you can't own it like you know you kind of set a claim and like hey Here's here's our boundaries that we're operating in stuff And then you know some rogue nation sends a bunch of telepresence robots to commandeer your manufacturing on the moon Like it's gets it gets into a really really interesting kind of sci fi concept Initially, but then when you actually start to think about it going like man.
We're not far off Like like the futures now
[00:41:47] Sean Martin: Wow. Bob, I was just thinking, will I, will I see that in my lifetime with my daughter, my grandson? I don't know. How far will it be?
[00:41:56] Tim Fowler: I, I hope, I hope I get to see part of it.
[00:42:00] Marco Ciappelli: You know what, you know what we, we get to see is that we, we get to talk about the stuff, not in the sci fi realm anymore.
We're talking about this stuff that, you know, we may see, we may not see, but we, we have either seen it happen because we were there, um, I mean, I was just born when we, 1969 on the moon, but I've looked many times the videos and the documentary, and now we're having this conversation that let's face it.
Yeah, a few decades ago would have been sci fi. So in a way,
[00:42:32] Tim Fowler: yeah, I mean, it's, you know, we're not living in this realm of like, as you said, it's like, it's what we're talking about is plausible.
Yeah.
And, and it's, it's not, it's like, oh, we don't have the technology that is, no, we just haven't. Perfected the technology.
It's not reliable enough or it's not cost effective enough and stuff But like everything that we're talking about like we've been laying the groundwork for this for decades and like it's coming You know, it's like like what is what is our sci fi? like what is our generation sci fi because if you look as like, you know go back to the original Star Trek and stuff like That and you know that it's like, okay What is it the tricorder?
Yeah, we all carry cell phones in our pockets today. Like, I mean, that's, that's just our life and stuff. And so, like, what is, what is my son's, like, what's gonna be his science fiction, and how is that gonna become reality for him? It's, it's definitely something that's interesting.
[00:43:28] Marco Ciappelli: I think he's gonna be going back to, You know, organic farming and living on land.
[00:43:34] Sean Martin: Yes.
[00:43:35] Marco Ciappelli: Who knows,
[00:43:36] Tim Fowler: maybe I would not, I would not be opposed to that. I mean, I'd be out of a job.
[00:43:39] Marco Ciappelli: It, it's kind of like a, a wave and who knows? Maybe, maybe in a better way, but I don't know. Uh. Okay, I'm going to kill this conversation. I don't want to.
[00:43:50] Sean Martin: It's fascinating, isn't it?
[00:43:51] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, it's amazing. It's technology, it's security, it's society, it's philosophy.
It's everything we, everything we geek, we geek on and, uh, and we have fun. So again, Tim, I, I, I thank you for this. And again, whenever you want to. Geek out with us about this kind of stuff. Just tell me, hey, I got, I got an hour. Let's make more coffee. Let's make more coffee.
[00:44:21] Tim Fowler: Just order it and stuff. Thank you so much.
I'm gonna drop in about four minutes. I'm gonna go actually do the job that pays. But this, this is, this is the stuff that's, you know, um, I love this so much because, um, as just as we hit at the end of it, it's like, it's not like we're now, uh, you know, forecasting for when, not if, um, this stuff will ever happen and, and things, um, And so, but yeah, thank you guys for having me back on.
You know, this is one of those things that's like, let's, you know, this, this year in space, like how, like what has, what has happened over the last year that's actually kind of changing, um, you know, what we're doing and stuff. I think the direct to sell thing is one that's, It's going to change so much. Um, because we are, you know, it won't be long before you're not going to have Verizon.
You're not going to have, uh, you know, uh, AT& T or whatever. It's like, you're going to be using Starlink cellular or whatever. They're going to call it or whatever. And it's going to be incredibly reliable and we're going to be so dependent on it. And it's just another, You know, chink where it's like, Hey, we, we, we own you, we own your communications.
Um, and so that's definitely,
[00:45:40] Marco Ciappelli: which is always somebody's goal is to make sure as we are talking, I'm going to say goodbye. Cause I haven't killed the recording yet. So by now we're fading out the conversation what we usually do So this is a little bit of behind the scene of what we normally do. We keep the conversation going But this time we're actually still recording so quickly This was Redefining Society.
Tim Fowler was with us. Sean joined it and I see again this conversation happening Soon and uh, you guys stay tuned share and we're gonna keep chatting for a little bit longer, but I'm going to kill the broadcast. So thank you Tim. Thank you, Sean.
[00:46:20] Sean Martin: Peace out.
[00:46:22] Tim Fowler: Thank you everyone.