Explore the future of AI in education with Marco Ciappelli and Brian Sathianathan as they discuss Chat GPT and its impact on our school systems and our society.
Guest: Brian Sathianathan, Co-Founder/Chief Digital Officer/Chief Technology Officer at Iterate.ai [@IterateAI]
On Linkedin | https://www.linkedin.com/in/briansathianathan/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/BrianVision?
Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
"Explore the future of AI in education with Marco Ciappelli and Brian Sathianathan as they discuss Chat GPT, and its impact on our school systems and our society."
Welcome to another thrilling episode of the Redefining Society Podcast, hosted by Marco Ciappelli!
Today, we're diving headfirst into the exciting and sometimes controversial world of artificial intelligence, specifically focusing on the ever-popular Chat GPT. Our guest, Brian Sathianathan, is passionate about the potential applications of AI in education, and together with Marco, they'll explore how we can harness the power of AI for the betterment of society.
Get ready for a mind-bending conversation that will have you questioning the future of our society and the role AI plays in it. As technology continues to advance at a rapid pace, it's crucial that we educate ourselves in order to understand and adapt to these changes.
Join us as we discuss the revolutionary nature of Chat GPT, the potential challenges and benefits it presents to the education system, and how we can ensure that society is prepared for the AI-driven future.
Don't miss out on this essential conversation – and don't forget to share it with others, subscribe to the podcast, and join us in redefining society together!
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Resources
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording as errors may exist. At this time we provide it “as it is” and we hope it can be useful for our audience.
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Marco Ciappelli01:52
And here we go, Brian, this is was with me today. I'm gonna let him introduce himself really, really soon. But as usual disclaimer, as you're watching the video, there is an audio version. Now I want to carry with you in the car when you walk the dog who can do that. And if you're listening to the audio, and you want to see us not much, but we're not doing crazy stuff. But you know, maybe you enjoy more watching two people having a conversation. It's redefining society podcast where we talk about society, technology, technology and society and how they work, obviously in synergy together in the best case scenario, in the worst case scenario were screwed. So I hope that's not the case. But today, nothing new. It's an every newspaper, every body stock talking about Chad GPT. This is what we're going to talk about it today. And Brian is actually passionate about the application that we can have in the education system. So we're going to have the people that know now we cannot let it in the school. Kids are going to do it anyway. So maybe there is another alternative to say no. So all this said this is stay tuned. I'm gonna be a great conversation. I already know it, Brian, if you can introduce yourself, I'm not even gonna try your last name, please. You pronounce it better than me, I'm sure being Italian.
Brian Sathianathan 03:19
Thank you, Marco. Thank you for having me. My name is Brian sati. Nathan, I'm excited to be on the show. Right. I am the Chief Technology Officer, Chief Digital Officer and co founder of a company in Silicon Valley called iterate.ai. It's an AI drag and drop. What do you call a low code platform company that provides components for large companies like basically think about it like a Lego canvas, where you can drag and drop software pieces and build very large enterprise AI driven applications. So we work we work with lots and lots of large companies such as Alta beauty circle, K. Jackie, many, many, many different customers using our type of AI software. Yeah, so I'm very excited to be here. Thank you Marco for having me.
Marco Ciappelli04:09
Of course and you know, it's like I said at the beginning kidding. It's It's everybody's talking about it. There is many different angles, there is a people that are scared of it, or there is copyright issue there is you know, now that shot GPT in particular, you know now with version four, it has a visual input as well. So that's kind of exciting. Let's see where we go with that one. But then you have other machine learning application from you know, the Dalai for for images, and then you have the music one from Google. So people talk about content copyright issue, creativity, can we use it can we no use it and I just had a conversation about the application in the in the medical field which is Pretty exciting. Yeah. So in this case, I know you're passionate about the, the education side of things. So let's start with, are you excited about chat? GPT? And should people be afraid of it? Or is just let the usual fear of the unknown? Or? Well, we don't really understand.
Brian Sathianathan 05:22
I'm very excited about it. Right? I do have the fear of the unknown, but I'll come to that in a minute. Right. But I think what's really interesting is, every once in a while, you get a technology that is sort of game changing, right? This is what you sort of call the revolutionary technology, right? So you know, in in as you if you if you are in the marketing, media world, you know, every day you see press releases of companies putting out release of their software, their hardware, their new, new gizmo, right. But what's really interesting is most of the innovation that comes out in these releases are very incremental, right? They're a small step towards something right? And mostly marketing. But once every once in a while, you get a technology that comes in, that is completely revolutionary, changes everything, right? So what happens is, when whenever humans encounter technologies that are completely revolutionary, the humans human behavior, to embrace that technology, and adapt that technology has to change. Right? So when you have incremental technologies, on the other hand, the technology has to adapt. So humans would actually adapt it, because it's, it's a small move, right? When you have a major move, societies have to change, right? So GPD, where I'm scared is that, you know, this is an area where societies have to change in order to embrace it and adapt it. If not, it'll just, you know, cloud through most of these things, which is kind of the sad part of it. Right? But but at the same time, you know, as in the humans in over the over our evolution, we've changed a lot. I mean, we've, you know, we've gone from, you know, like steam engines to crazy Industrial Revolution stuff to computing technologies to quantum to read, as you look at the rate of innovation, right, we are in this curve, of of, you know, exponential innovation that keeps on happening, right, Chad GBD, kind of, you know, hit it to like a sort of a straight line up. Right. So, infinite up, right, what's really interesting, because that also means if across every industry, leaders, and consumers have to think about how it's going to affect them, and have to make the changes, right. It's not just on education. I'll give you some classic examples. I was sitting with a friend of mine, this over the weekend, and he's a mathematics PhD in a university in New York. He was actually asking chat GPD, like very difficult grad school in a mathematical proof questions, right? One of the questions we gave is like, can you actually prove that sine x squared is not uniformly continuous? That means it's an equation that goes on like that, right? Can you prove that? And it was amazing. It did like a fabulous proof. Right? So the answers that it's giving, because it has access to so much literature, and it has processing so much a human brain cannot process. It's coming up with like, really intuitive answers. across every field in medical science, insurance, banking, you're looking at like retail, especially a lot in retail, in education, right? So as it's doing its thing, we have to as humans have to figure out methods on how are we going to embrace it? What are the restrictions we are going to put on it? Right? And how are we going to change our lifestyle to meet it? Right? I mean, look about the software development industry, right? Over the weekend, I generated a full web application, front end and back end, right. All in charge up because charge GPGPU, even GPD for today cannot build full applications, entire suite of apps. But guess what, you if you are if you have engineering background, you can break the apps is up in your mind into pieces. And you can write this piece find me generate this piece for me this piece for me this piece,
Marco Ciappelli09:15
you know, I liked it, you said that because I I'm more into the writing the creative, the content creation, and all of that. And, and I was like playing with the same block idea because I can't feed more than, you know, 15 minutes of a conversation, let's say if I'm doing the summary of or introduction for a podcast, maybe even this one, I'm sure I'm gonna use it. But you're limited but then if you want to build something bigger than that, you need to kind of get creative and all that in increments. So that's really, really cool what you said and it makes me think about these, this way to look at it. So it's a big cultural change. stat is needed. And culture don't change as fast as technology, legislation even less but given culture, you know, just said correctly we are scare at the beginning of things are scared of cars. And then now look, we drive them, we should be scared, of course still. But we're not, we just jump in at him and we go. So I know that we will embrace the chat GPT and all the good that come from it. But if you're if somebody comes to you, and let's say in the educational system, you know, like, you know, I'm fascinated by that, because I think you open the mind of the, of the student, if you teach them how to use it correctly, the potential are incredible. And if you just say now, well, guess what, they're gonna use it anyway. And maybe they'll use it in the wrong way, you know, a little bit of guidance will be good. So what is your first answer to people that are, that are telling you like men and internet is it's no good for the school system? There's no good for education, it is not good for society in general. So the denier? I mean, apart from rolling your eyes, which I normally do, but then what do you do you say?
Brian Sathianathan 11:12
See, I think every problem has specifics, right? It's very hard to generalize anything, you know, in a in a one line statement that totally done in political campaigns, that it feels good. And then 10 minutes later, you gotta think about it and say, well, that's not true. So I think that the thing about, about this, this whole broad statements about it's not good, I think people need to step back and think about it a little bit, right? Like, let's take the school system, for instance, right. Chad TPT is great education. Right? It allows kids to think about new ideas, ways to create narratives, right. And it also clearly teaches kids to, to interact with AI in the future, right? Because one of the things that's coming is one of the fields that's about to generate out of this is this field called prompt engineering. I was talking to one of my engineers today, and he saw some job postings, somewhere, some someone had said, a prompt engineer, $450,000 a year, the company
Marco Ciappelli12:14
already it's already a job.
Brian Sathianathan 12:18
I haven't had a chance to look at it, but he was telling me, he found a posting something, right. So it's amazing. So what happens is that you are learning new ways to interact with them. We're gonna start with GPT. Three, you're gonna have like, you know, in five years, you're gonna have GPT 28, who knows what it can do? It could do everything, music, video images, right? Anything that's digital can be transferred or to it, right? And then maybe there might be GPD 29, where I could even interact with, you know, outside machinery and things like that. Right? Right. It can, it can span across, it can create a whole series of industrial revolution, not just only from digital and content, anything that's digital, but also going could go into things that are non digital, right. So I think the way I would look at it is like, take the school system and look at areas where it is a, it is a problem. And where it is an actual solution, or an enhancer, right? For teaching and learning. It's an enhancer. It's a problem for homeworks homework. Because the even if you block Jaggi PD in the school district, the kids gonna do it. And how many parents most parents probably don't even know how to block this thing. Right? So so it's a problem for take home homework, right? It's a problem for term papers and term sheets, where you're loving the people, right? So I think the same issue existed in the case of calculator and calculator came about, you know, you come in even even in certain grades, you can still use calculator, and you got to still learn the multiply table, but you have to learn the table. Because if you don't know the tables, and eventually your basics have to be there. But at the same time, in certain advanced grades, you can actually use calculator, right or in university, like if you're calculating some logarithmic number or whatever, you know, you're not going to look up a table, a paper table, I remember when I was studying the pivot table, you don't do that anymore, right? So what's really interesting is you have to look at it in a much more granular way. And education systems will change. So take homes will will be a different style, homework will be a different style. Similarly, you know, like, papers, term papers will be a different style. But in school, church, like a lot of the existing school educational system, for example, if you look at, you know, like the kids who are today using, you know, various Google platforms, right, and then like language learning tools like Duolingo, and all these tools, they can begin to take advantage of it by integrating into this type of capability, right? Not even if you look at a lot of the scenario tools like simple things like teaching mathematics to kids, like you know, multiplying two numbers, you know, and they do all these animation, but those animations are fixed, right. And then you have the right code to actually respond to how the kid is learning with GPT type system, that could be real time, it could interact with the kid much more and customize the learning for that child. Right? So a lot of those things like people can build really powerful applications on top of what's already there. Right? So you have to look at it at a granular level, like if I am talking about education, First, I need to ask the question, what grade is it? Right? What are the eight or nine steps that are that are involved? Where is it a problem? And where is it is it's an enhancer, right? Where it's an enhancer, as an education educator, the person should think about how to enhance it. And then the other I would also encourage the school systems and administrators should actually spend more time in learning these things, and kind of get ahead of it. And not behind not be like I said,
Marco Ciappelli15:55
I mean, that's so true. And I have been having this kind of conversation for the past, I think, five, eight years since when we started ITSPmagazine. And one thing that is become kind of like my signature, the question is, who is educating the educators? Because the gap that we had in the technology, we can talk about cybersecurity, to how to use the internet, how to, to figure out if it's fake news, or if it is, you know, news manipulation, or whatever it is, it all comes down to? Can you spot the issue? Can you do that as a kid, but if nobody is teaching, if the parents don't know anything about it, if the teacher don't know anything about it, then we find ourselves with a gap that is increasing? Constantly. So I completely agree with you. I mean, it should be before you even say I don't want it in the class, try to understand it, because maybe if you do try to understand that, you'll see some of these angles and customized education, it's it's big. And I think AI can absolutely can absolutely resolve help resolving this, this. So what other application? Can you can you think on top of your head for? Maybe Maybe there is the boat? Let's look at both sides, like how can teacher use it? And How can kids use it properly? Not just by trying to cheat and say, just write the entire paper?
Brian Sathianathan 17:29
For me? Yeah. See, I think teachers can use it to in many ways, I think, I mean, eventually, even of course, you know, the that in its base form as the chat DPD just the chat. It, it may have limited usage. But eventually educational applications like you know, if you want to create a teaching lesson, create a lesson plan, right? There could be applications, lesson plan creation applications that could integrate charge GPD underneath. So you could actually automatically build worksheets, and lesson plan sheets in a much more if because certain times it's like time consuming work for teachers, and they could generate invalidated, fix the things they want to change. And then you could you could get, you know, better generated summaries and content. The other area I think might also be interesting is there could be eventually correction tools, Article reading and correction tools for teachers powered by charge GPD. Because imagine you're a teacher, you know, like, you know, most teachers, in fact, my wife is a teacher, she's a first grade teacher. Okay, a lot of you have that. Yeah, but I haven't been home. And then also, she has a lot of teacher friends who are at different grade levels, right, teachers, I mean, a lot of people don't give credit to teachers is that just like engineers, and executives, they carry their work wherever they go. So we would go into a vacation and my wife comes with a stack of papers. But with these all correction, like your little one first grade year old papers, right? What's really interesting is in the future, there could be I mean, especially for high school teachers with with lots of like, term papers they need to evaluate. There could be applications that will allow them to highlight certain things. Right? So there's today if you look at GPT for I think it's like the based on what I read is a top 10 But pass the bar exam in top 10% Right? Yeah, legal contract, you can paste a contract and say it's all prompt engineering, right? You have to learn how to interact with AI. You can pass the like pester class and say, Hey, in a tell me how it's been written. What is the you know, what, which party do benefit? What are the risks? What are the threats? And it could answer things in a so did it so like that, you know, teacher correction tools might be interesting for teachers, right? To evaluate as term papers and things like that, because each term paper is like 2030 pages. So you know, reading that across 30 kids like reading 900 pages, right?
Marco Ciappelli19:45
People need to think that way because I think the people that deny it, and the criticize it remain in the in the togetherness in the whole thing and say just like a big no because they think that the, the charge GPT, or any other artificial intelligence machine learning application is, is going to be, the solution is going to be the final product that let's see if you agree with with my way of thinking, and maybe that will help the audience understand as well. So if instead we look at it as a tool that is allow you to do to focus on something of a higher level that, let's be honest, it's not the most creative machine is not being creative. It's it's pretrained transformer. So it's generated things in a very, I don't want to say mechanical way, but he doesn't really know what he's writing. Right? So that's the, but if we think about all the application, they can say, you know, what, if it's going to just screen as you say the homework, and then you highlight certain issue, it doesn't mean that you're letting the charge up to give a grade to the paper. You just been suggested where you could put your attention. And then you're the final person. You're the wanting control. Yeah, that's
Brian Sathianathan 21:15
right. That's right. We all use Grammarly even schools use Grammarly. Right, exactly. This is a more advanced version of some of those things where it can bring in that idea of like helping people in a much more effective way. Right.
Marco Ciappelli21:30
And research to I mean, on the other side, if the if the student know how to use it for research, not to try to write the entire paper, you know, that needs. That's great. They learn more, I think they learn more.
Brian Sathianathan 21:43
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. The other thing that's also interesting is like I think you mentioned a really interesting point, which is today, the way we interact either educators or enterprise executives, or even like, you know, consumers, the way we interact with chat GPD, today is going to open a IGBT. And then we are upfront, right, and we give it prompts. But tomorrow, you will actually see lots of applications that are already integrated with chat GPD chat GBD becomes sort of like the electricity. It's not I mean, everywhere. Yeah. So like for all the applications, if you look at what Microsoft has released recently, right, all their apps and you know, like the teams, so you get you get a little summary in teams. And you basically say, Hey, what did I miss in this meeting? Bam, it'll summarize, but you're not going to the chat GPD prompt. It's built into the apps. So similarly, educational apps, like Duolingo, and various forms of you know, all these from the little kids. So the high school is, today there are like if you if you are in a high school, you do get there or even if you're in in elementary school, you get like a Google Chromebook. Right. My My daughter has that. I mean, every every child has that. Right? So that group that Google Chromebook, when you open it up, you go into a prompt, with a series of apps already approved by the school district. And your login, the administrators control the the thing that the prompt and authentication. So like, like bad apps and unapproved apps don't show up. But in those apps that are there, they in the future will all be integrated into GPT. And they will provide capability, like your map teaching program will actually have GPT capabilities. Right, as you're learning. So that's why I think it will be it won't be just the prompt alone, the kids will still work with the prompt when they are writing term papers and research papers. But they're also there will also be applications of it on their individual educational apps. Right. Same thing will happen in in, in productivity Office application just like what Microsoft I mean, actually, it's kind of interesting, because Microsoft now has a head start, right? I hope you know, others get a head start too, because then it'll become a Microsoft control world. Right? But hopefully, you know, it becomes a very open world where a lot of applications will get integrated into this. So that you know, people will we will use it and at one point they won't even know that they've interacted with GPD because it's somewhat seamless, right? So today in a veneer on your iPhone, you know, like you write emails using swipe right you just keep on swiping. You don't think about who's providing this like ebook. Right, it works. Right. Same thing with Grammarly.
Marco Ciappelli24:19
Yep, yeah. And I what I really like it's, it's to make the education system work better improve, right. I mean, I had a conversation with Mike Mikey, I'd say he's a brilliant guy that talks a lot about improving education. And, and talking about not only minority and diverse group, but also, you know, people that need the different kinds of attention, which is not just because you you are neurodiverse or you have, you know, a different way that you learn, right, but, or learning disabilities but also everybody's interested in something different So I go back and many, many years ago when I was when I was in school, everybody seats 25 kids in a room, they're all listening to the same thing. And some people are gonna be very interested, some people already know about it, maybe because the family told them and some people, they just need that extra help. So if you, if you can imagine and put your futuristic hat and I'm talking to the audience, then you have a one on one where your check your skills, and you're given the education and the moment the lesson that you need to catch up, you're not going to be left behind. So in a way, it is a democratic zation. of of the school?
Brian Sathianathan 25:42
Absolutely, absolutely. It's a complete democratization, especially across the diverse as well, as you know, like, low income population, where the where the children, the parents don't necessarily have the means to help, or even challenges where the parents didn't go to school in the past. They don't have the basic education to have, this could be a really great tool where the child could turn around and ask questions and learn. And, you know, like, you know, like, I mean, kids learn, I don't know, my little daughter is learning when she's nine years old, fourth grade, learning Greek mythology. So she wanted to ask some question about like, Sphinx, tell me about the Sphinx. So we went to Chad GPD and said, Tell me all about Sphinx, so it generated a whole article about, so it was a great learning experience. Right? So I say like, it's like, what a tutor would do, right? Sometimes, you know, even like educated parents, sometimes, you know, they asked us about something. And you know, you did the time last time, you can remember history, and you know, all these things like so many years ago, you forget,
Marco Ciappelli26:44
you need to refresh for refresh. And
Brian Sathianathan 26:46
this is a great way to kind of avoid to do that. And it also, I love this idea of democratization, right? Because the internet is a great democratizer. Right? This is another step ahead of it. It's a Democrat Eisah of knowledge for a lot of people. The only thing that I think what I worry about it is that we got to teach kids. I think it's also parents and educators and also even like media folks like us is that, you know, whatever you read from chat, GPT is not always correct. Hey, the GPT can shut up, they can hallucinate, right? Or they could pick up a wrong information from somewhere. Right? So validate what you wrote. So that's another part of the learning, right? So today, when you read, when you write a court, something in your term paper, you always say, you know, you basically say, I got it from this location, right? You put Chicago Manual style, you know, footnote, right. But then what happens is, you actually go and validate it, that research is correct. Who are the other 20 people who actually talked about it? So as long as that thesis is like, and that theory is fed into our kids, oh, it's I learned this, but it's the base. Now I can go to research and read 20 articles about it to see if it's true or not,
Marco Ciappelli27:53
which is more like the college system. I mean, you're you don't know everything, you just go to the books and you do get a source and then But then your list a source. And if I'm understanding correctly, I haven't played much the just released the the four I've seen improvement in my everyday use of it. But I think there is also a way now do to look at where the source of the information. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So that's already a big, big improvement. Which brings me to let let's look at this from, you know, from an ethical perspective. I mean, I say often, we never talked about philosophy and ethics. As much as lately with AI. It's almost like a way to learn about ourselves. And I talked to philosopher, I saw two professors and have ethics. And it's amazing, because we kind of like saying things like, well, ml AI, they're learning from us, and maybe we don't know enough about ethics. So that's right. How is this going to amplify, in your opinion, the problem, or is it going to be as I think, a way to stop powers and say, hmm, maybe we do need to think more than that?
Brian Sathianathan 29:12
Yeah. So what's really interesting, it'll amplify all the human problems, right? Yes, humans today, we ourselves and so many ethical challenges in terms of agreeing, right? I mean, I don't know like, you know, like, the simple concepts, right, in a space travel, you know, is the earth round. Flat, right. So like, like a things that have already been scientifically proven, have have had, you know, a lot of questions among folks like even topics that are well established, right. So I think the thing is that whatever challenges that human society has today, will, will get amplified because the technology is always an amplifying force, right. But I think what happens though, is that this type of challenges short term, they are a problem the amplification becomes a problem, right? Because Because until the right answer is found, and then and then the AI systems get fixed, right? So today, for example, you know, the chap GPT doesn't have certain political views, it will not say it because of no, because all the fixed into the out of it, hopefully things will will get fixed. And there are more and more and more controls that will be placed in to kind of handle the other is the AI will also have self realization technique where like, you know, Brian vi would respond differently from Marcos AI. Right. Over time, they will they will get personalized, and they will another opinion, it will say it will have some sort of a, you know, a legal disclaimer that says, you know, Brian, based on all your learning, I think this is what I believe it is. Right? It may not be true. Right? So I think that there is a bit of a personalization element that will come in, and then they will fix that I think what will happen is short term, we will have a lot of problems. But I think in long term, this is good. And it's here to stay, and it will help the hill.
Marco Ciappelli31:07
Okay, so let's finish this conversation with that with a put in our thinking hat. And looking at the short term future, which could even be a year six months already probably enough. And what could be 1020 years from now, and I love to play these games, always the way that I like to end the conversation like these and and say like, can I this could be where we go to utopia and this will be where we go to dystopia 1980? Something? what's your what's your thought on that? So you can have a hand to it. So beginning lot of problem. Give me an example or two, what you could see the problem be and then
Brian Sathianathan 31:51
oh, a lot of right do we go to happen is that company is good. When when this type of when this type of technology gets a company, it will suddenly realize some of the menial tasks or even like workflow tasks that happens within enterprises, right can be eliminated, like companies will suddenly start using integrated automated tools that could eventually create very fast job loss that is that is not predicted, which will create problems. And then of course, there'll be an uprising against all this type of tools. People say, Oh, we got to ban this, right. But just at the same time, it loves to create new opportunities for prompt engineering for people who are trying to build, interact and use the tools well. So those are some of the issues. The other is that there'll be a lot of press releases, where people will not press media cover that people said, well, I asked this thing to open AI and it said this terrible, horrible response. And it's you know, and you'll see a lot of that stuff, right? So this is not the right thing for the society. So you'll see a lot of those issues, right? And then I'm sure like, I mean, imagine and we are also very in America, very so happy society, somebody will like ask some question, and somebody will die. And eventually somebody will sue somebody, you know, just because of the nature of how society works, right? I mean, I mean, so many companies have got sued for false advertising, right? And all kinds of issues just because of how people perceive. So you will get a lot of those issues, then there will be a lot of ethical, there'll be a lot of challenges, I think in terms of media, and REITs, which is going to create a lot of problems, because a lot of the traditional media contracts are written several years ago, right? 1520 years ago, and then this whole idea of derivative current derivative content, right? What is derived from what because that media is very specific on that, right, you could create something that looks like derivative work from something else, and you can you still hold the rights to derivative work. So there'll be a lot of clauses in derivative work that will get flushed out and I'm sure there will be problems, people will be unhappy lawsuits, and the lawyers will run around, and eventually they'll figure it out. I'm sure there will be quite a quite a bunch of work that will happen in that space. Because me because now we are only seeing the textual aspect of GPT. And now we are seeing image and image capability of GPT. Very soon this was going to have music, it's going to have content and then suddenly, somebody's gonna be upset. I mean, surely, if you go to Open AI, you can actually see like, you know, music generated in Katy Perry style, right. So it can the lyrics are, I mean, just random, like garbage, but, but the music style is using that tone. Right? So a lot of and the other question is, should eventually media companies will fail, you know, now there's a problem. Now, you know, the middleman label issue is going to become a problem, right? Artists might say, well, I charge GPD I have, you know, tools I can do a lot of those things. I don't necessarily need you know, a lot of help from the middleman. So a lot of disaggregation is gonna get accelerated. Right. But I think what's really interesting though, is in the a lot of these chat GPT and generative AI technology is they are machines are creating The average, right? So learn from everybody, it creates the average of everybody, right? Yeah, creating the average. But you need those machines in order to do that because your brain is you can't keep everything, but you forget everything you like. So this create this create that thing that it solves the problem of identifying averages, right. But then on top of that false specific creativity, I think artists can will embrace these tools, while people will embrace and after a while, embracing these tools will become a common form, right? Like, I mean, like, for example, like auto to write auto teen, lots of artists when Auto Tune came into this is bad, but
Marco Ciappelli35:44
still bad.
Brian Sathianathan 35:46
It's still bad when Auto Tune still runs. And there are good sound generated through that
Marco Ciappelli35:51
that's one invention that I want to go back in time and check. Sorry.
Brian Sathianathan 35:58
But the thing is that, you know, things can it will over time, people will embrace things, whether you're good or bad, right? So I think there is a whole aspect that's a shortcut, right? Like, Well, I think media will be one of those things that there'll be a lot of rocking, that will happen. The other thing that will happen, especially with all this research, and not research, generally high inflation rates, and companies trying to get their margins down. The danger is like like existing productivity tools, right, coming up with chat, GPT integrations, and a lot of lot of workflow tools. If they come up with this integration. Now, suddenly, a series of intermediary things are not necessary. Right, if an email comes in, you click on a button, and it will process the workflow automatically, it will also create a lot of challenges for enterprise software vendors and suite vendors. Right, it will be really interesting. I'm very interested to see how that will play out. So I think that's something that we need to look at in the short term and job loss and content, right. Long term is going to be really interesting, right? Because one of the things I think that was recently I wrote an article called The tentacles of power, is in terms of today's world, it's built by software, everything you see is software, right? Like, you know, even the Zoom is underneath the software, the hardware is very minimal this microphone and, and maybe that camera, right? But even inside those things, it's all software running it right. So same thing, this is a way how software has power is applied, amplify, right? And everything else this every one of these things, the mic and the camera are just like dumb tentacles, right? As software becomes more and more and more and more powerful, it'll actually pretty much reach out every generation. So what it means is today, like, you know, in the beauty industry, if you want to get a custom makeup, right, there are devices out there that you just simply take the color of your shirt, and it will print your lipstick have the exact same color of your shirt. But guess what, the color mixing routine and everything is AI ml, it's all software. And then it is a very simple motor that just rotates and mixes a bunch of cops. Right? You go to Home Depot, right? Like you can just take an old piece of a wall and then they'll basically take a picture of it and makes a pain for you. And that's already there. Whenever all the magic underneath. It's actually software. Right? So software is like basically making very, very dumb hardware. It's amazing. So the AI will kind of amplify that. Right? So what it means that eventually the GPT is capable, not eventually looking at two to three years GPD will have connectors into every possible hardware capabilities. Every hardware out there will become super intelligent. Now it's got right so you can actually in a half a year Alexa would actually could use DPD and do things in your home. Right?
Marco Ciappelli38:43
You just crossed just crossed the oh shit moment for me like yeah. Nice dystopian. No, yeah. Oh, god. No,
Brian Sathianathan 38:52
yeah. But I think about dystopian and utopian, right? I think I wanted to my personal philosophy in this utopian dystopia. And this is just very brand specific. I'm not talking about iterate at this point, I have a great philosophy. But I think a lot of times when we see like future scientific movies, right, a lot of times we see a very bad, terrible world. And it's kind of sad, because I think what happened is a lot of those thoughts came from the old, you know, religious and other type of writings where people actually went about, you know, like a terrible world and there is a apocalypse and things are gonna die and it's gonna get destroyed, right. But you also have to understand, you know, they were in a world where a lot of people who wrote those things were in a world where people's heads were getting chopped right in front of their eyes, right? We live in a much more cultured society, we still have problems, right? But it's not like if you were lived in if you lived in 15th century marker, you won't even know whether you will ever do a podcast or you may not even know you will be alive to this age, right? Just because of how those societies behave. So I think as we are in a more advanced society, I think we should remain Add in the world.
Marco Ciappelli40:01
I love it. Also, because also because another thing that you may want to think about it, and you mentioned that the reason why all the movies or the books that are kind of like more dystopian is because if everything was perfect, there wouldn't be a story, they wouldn't be there. And this is how everything worked well and is working perfectly. We leave all, you know, 600 years because we don't have disease. Okay, but I need a problem. Because otherwise, what's the movie? Why do I want? That is no problem. There is no hero, there is no antagonists. The lesson is to be try to be more positive maybe and see.
Brian Sathianathan 40:48
Yeah, right. I think I think there is a more of a positive world that can be built.
Marco Ciappelli40:53
Right? I love it. I love it. Well, Brian, I love this kind of conversation, I really enjoy the fact that we weren't all philosophical. But we did focus a little bit on the education system. And it really makes me hopeful that this will not create awfully a bigger digital divide, but actually will feel this divide. And maybe it will be easier to give that computer to to everyone in that way to learn and build their future and education in a much better way. Yeah.
Brian Sathianathan 41:28
And also one thing before we close, Michael, yeah, go for it, it'll be really interesting is that, you know, I think a lot of these large language models and all these large models. So today, open AI is being built by open AI. But there are also companies that are coming around who are building these large models in using open source. In fact, I had a presentation I did the other day to some senior leaders, on how many open source competitors are there, they are not at the level of open AI. Because because it takes me hundreds of millions of dollars, right. So one thing we should look at it is there should be some sort of grants and funded programs to enhance open source based training. So there is always an alternative. Right? So these larger companies don't actually create it as a walled garden so that we can enter the data market. What's the big enemy to democratization is walled gardens.
Marco Ciappelli42:21
No, I agree. streaky, because they call they call it open AI. So you think is open source at the beginning, but it's a company get that
Brian Sathianathan 42:32
it's a company? I mean, they have certain things, I think the older version of GPT
Marco Ciappelli42:35
No, no, I know. But it's kind of like, you know, I agree with you. I mean, if you if you're doing it, again, we could have an entire episode about this. But if you're doing in the interest of humanity, then it should be probably an open source project that can allow to really get all the possible input and many player come into place instead of
Brian Sathianathan 42:57
another thing, Miko that could be just like, you know, like, it could be like an NSF or like one of those government society funded programs, where you have models that are trained, somebody like governments and non governmental organizations make investments, like $100 million $200 million, and not a lot of money these days. Right? I mean, the amount of money we have bailing out banks and all that stuff, right, there is it that can be done. And there can be a much much bigger open world that could be created by this.
Marco Ciappelli43:26
Absolutely.
Brian Sathianathan 43:29
I love the fact that which you love, which is true democratization. Can we create? Can Can we bring everybody in the educational field as well as every society? Kind of a level playing field?
Marco Ciappelli43:40
Yeah, and putting the money into what really matters if we want to be idealistic to you know, in research and human space exploration and all of that, it's like we think we've spent a lot of money with NASA but actually the budget is really minimal when you think about you know, what just planned for other things that are not as constructive as that one. But anyway, we were eating 42 minutes of a beautiful conversation I really hope that people are thinking about it. And another thing I suggest is if you never tried it go out there it's you don't have to pay the 20 bucks for the latest version. You know, just just play with it because maybe maybe you understand a little bit more about you know, the feminine making more familiar this this possibly scary thoughts that somebody is it's not somebody but it's a it like it's AI that is talking to you. And and with that said, Brian, thank you so much. I look forward to for more conversation. I'm thinking to create a panel to discuss all of this from different perspectives. I would love for you to come back on on the show with others and everybody else listening you'll find information and links to to Brian in the notes for the episode and links to social media. and transcript that will be done probably by an end. So get ready for that. If it's not correct blame it or not, don't blame me. All right, Brian, thank you so much.
Brian Sathianathan 45:11
Thank you, Michael, for having me. Thank you. Thanks again. Take care.
Marco Ciappelli45:15
My pleasure, my pleasure.
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