In the latest episode of the "Redefining Society Podcast: A Carbon, a Silicon, and a Cell Walk into a Bar" series, Marco Ciappelli and Dr. Bruce Y. Lee dive deep into the multifaceted realm of personalized health, discussing how AI can assist in tailoring health recommendations by accounting for unique variables like lifestyle, physiology, and social factors.
Guest: Dr. Bruce Y Lee, Executive Director of PHICOR (Public Health Informatics, Computational, and Operations Research) [@PHICORteam]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/bruce-y-lee-68a6834/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/bruce_y_lee
Website | https://www.bruceylee.com/
On Forbes | https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/
On Psychology Today | https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/contributors/bruce-y-lee-md-mba
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
Hey there, welcome to another episode of "A Carbon, a Silicon, and a Cell Walk into a Bar," part of the Redefining Society podcast. I'm your host, Marco Ciappelli, and this series aims to explore the complexities of technology, health, and society. Today, I'm joined once again by Dr. Bruce Y. Lee, an expert in systems modeling, digital health, and a Professor of Health Policy at CUNY. The title of our series might sound like a tongue-in-cheek joke, but it's a guiding compass. Carbon for organic life, Silicon for technology, and Cell for health—each of these elements comes together in a conversation that aims to redefine how we perceive society.
Our discussion today turns to the subject of personalized health, a topic we often underestimate. Bruce, who just spoke at a conference sponsored by the Linus Pauling Institute at Oregon State University, delves into the myriad of variables that play into personalized health. From metabolism to social structures, every person is a sum of complex factors that dictate their health outcomes. And while we may recognize the importance of personalized nutrition and tailored health recommendations, Bruce highlights a crucial point: no single diet or lifestyle change is a one-size-fits-all solution.
Dr. Lee dives into the limitations of general health recommendations. Sure, everyone should aim for good sleep and avoid smoking, but what about the nitty-gritty details that are tailored just for you? This is where artificial intelligence (AI) could shine, by collecting and synthesizing data on our behaviors, physiology, and even our microbiomes to offer more individualized health guidelines.
"Health is can be very personal," Bruce notes. The reason one person's diet might work wonders but make another gain weight is due to the vast differences in our internal systems. "It takes a lot of time to really figure someone out," he adds, emphasizing that many factors are often overlooked—such as the unique microbiomes each of us hosts. And let's be honest; it's not exactly common practice to discuss your gut health over a coffee chat with friends.
In essence, the realm of personalized health is not just a growing field but a necessary one, especially as we look to navigate the complexities of modern life. For example, the challenges of describing your ailments to a doctor accurately—or even understanding what lifestyle adjustments could be beneficial for your well-being—are hurdles that AI might help us leap over.
So, as we continue to weave through the labyrinthine relationships between technology, health, and society, this episode serves as a great reminder. Personalized health isn't just the future; it's a critical present that we need to understand and embrace.
Cheers, and until next time!
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Resources
PHICOR: https://www.phicor.org/
AIMINGS: https://www.phicor.org/aimings
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Well, hello, everybody. This is Redefining Society podcast, one of the three for now, uh, recurring series that I am doing so that I can bring people on the show that are too busy to have their own podcast so I can unlock them. In this way. This one has been the first actually that we started with my friend, uh, Bruce Wiley, Dr.
Bruce. Uh, welcome back to the show. We'll see what we're going to talk about today, but we usually improvise at this bar, which today, for people watching, you're not in. We're, you're, you're drinking your water at home. Yes, I have left it. In an hotel room. I don't know.
[00:00:45] Bruce Y. Lee: I have left. I have left the virtual bar.
That does not mean I won't return to the virtual bar. But, uh, but yes, I've left the bar. Um, I'm actually in in Oregon right now. Uh, so the Pacific Northwest.
[00:00:59] Marco Ciappelli: Very nice. Very nice. And, uh, at this point, I'm hoping people have been listening to other shows. So I will just do the presentation myself by reading from your website.
Bruce Y. Lee, writer. Thank you. Journalist, professor, AI, computational and digital health expert and entrepreneur, but not always in that order. So, uh, well, actually now we can disclose that we got to meet in person for the first time. A couple of weeks ago, we hang out in Malibu. That was very nice, uh, to talk about things that for once it was not recorded.
So, you know, a lot Stuff that was not going to go on the record, but, uh, that was a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, I, I'm always excited because we never script, we never know what we're going to talk about and because they're traveling, you want to tell us why? And, uh, and I think it's related to one of your many interests.
[00:01:58] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, Marco. I mean, I think we met up mainly to so that I could prove that I'm not an AI projection. Um, so hopefully I did prove that or maybe, maybe you were more convinced that I was an AI projection because, uh, because I do say erroneous things every now and then. But, um, so, uh, yeah. So right now I'm actually, uh, back in the West Coast.
Um, and I just gave a talk at the, um. At a meeting that's sponsored by the Linus Polling Institute, uh, here at the, uh, Oregon State University. And they have a personalized health. meeting where we talked about the idea of personalized health. Uh, so personalized health is where rather than the opposite would be, you know, very gross, general health recommendations for everyone, you know, everyone should do X, Y, and Z.
And there are things that everyone should do. So like, for instance, everyone should try to get good, a good night's sleep. Um. Smoking is, is, is, has negative health consequences for everyone. Those things are very general health recommendations. But we do know that in many cases, health is can be very personal, you know, you, you, you see all the time, uh, there's a person who has terrible health habits, you know, does all these different types of things, but then seemingly never has health problems, lives forever.
And of course, there are people who are the opposite. So we do know that health differs significantly. So a lot of the discussions this meeting was about, you know, how do you personalize health? And my talk was about how AI, artificial intelligence, Can help with personalized health, uh, personalized nutrition, and those things like that.
Um, so if we think about it, people differ in many different ways. And, and it's actually more important how people differ in the non superficial ways. So when you look at, Oh, you say, Oh, people are different. And the first thing you think, Oh yeah, people are different in appearance and things like that. But that's actually some of the least important things.
Uh, people can differ quite significantly under the skin in terms of their metabolism and their physiology, their microbiome and all those things. And then people can also differ significantly in the types of behaviors they have. And then they can differ quite significantly in terms of their social structure, like who's influencing them.
Um, and then they can differ in their environments. So there's all these economic situations and those things like that. So when you want to really personalize health or personalize nutrition, you've got to take into account all these different factors. And it can get really, really complex. So if you think about it.
And I'll think about, uh, the people that, you know, uh, so we all have like people that we know very well might be significant other or might be, uh, close friends and even those people, like how well do you actually know them and then the further you get out, you know, in terms of your layers of friends and acquaintances, you may know a lot less because it takes a lot of time to really figure someone out.
Right. Um, so it's tough to, for an individual person to kind of know all these things. I mean, I, I presume. Yeah. With your friends, you don't ask them about their microbiome. You don't say, Oh, Hey, uh, how's that fecal material doing? So, you know, there's a lot of things that you don't know about people. So that'd be awkward, but yeah, that would be awkward.
Um, you know, that's not the first thing you want to open when you, when you talk to someone and say, Hey, hi, nice to meet you. Let's talk about your colon. Um, so, uh, but so there's all this data that you actually have to, not only first you have to figure it, you have to get the data, but then you have to actually Combine it and, and, and mesh it.
That's tough to do for like a human being. Like no matter how much experience or, or, um, expertise you have, or even time you have, it's tough to do that. That means perfect situation or ideal situation for AI and for computer techniques to really take all these things and kind of meld them together and figure out some insights.
Uh, so that's why stuff like personalized. Nutrition personalized health. It's could be real tough to do without help with computers. So this is where tech can play a major big role Um, so I talked about a lot of those things where It's really an emerging field a growing field.
[00:06:24] Marco Ciappelli: Well, it's again, I could go in a lot of different direction because as I have this bad habit that when people talk, I, you know, it's not a bad habit.
I take notes with a pen, which is kind of cool in the AI age, uh, but I'm like, okay, I'm going to go there because you said something. And then you say something else. I'm like, wait a minute. That's more interesting. So, uh, here, here's where I'm going. Um, so definitely a. Social demographic, uh, factors. We know that, that's a variable that is always there and then we don't take into consideration, right?
Like, even in looking at, vaccination rates or even looking at the way that the people interact with their doctor. That makes me think, like, how well do you describe your... problem to the doctor so that you can actually understand, because again, that doctor is not inside your body. And this is something I do a lot, like with my parents and, you know, my wife too, is like, were you very specific when you went to the doctor to explain what was the problem?
Uh, because it seems to me it's just making a general guess. You know, like you're your first doctor, you're the one that knows yourself to a certain point, right? And then the diet, it make me think about all this fade of diet. I'm from Italy, so I'm a fan of the Mediterranean diet. I know it comes always first, right?
But, but when people try to lose weight, there's been like paleo diet and this diet and another diet. And it's like, it looks like this is the one that is going to work. For everybody, no matter what. But again... Not true. Not true at all.
[00:08:09] Bruce Y. Lee: Not true. You see all these, yeah, you see these headlines saying this is the diet or this is the top five diets or something like that.
For who? And who is that for?
[00:08:20] Marco Ciappelli: So how, when we mix all this together, I can certainly see AI taking all this factor. What you do, Where do you live? What is, you know, the, your exercise rhythm of, that you do every day? Do you walk a lot? I mean, I was watching on Netflix, the Blue Zone documentary, which is really interesting about, ultra centenary that are in this particular area.
They all happen to live in an island, either in Japan or Sardinia or, in Costa Rica. But there are like, you know, things that are recurring for what they do, like walking a lot. Eating not too much meat, uh, social relationship, like that's important. Be happy waking up in the morning, having a goal.
So how is AI now? Do we have enough information from people? Or is it still going to, okay, ideally it can work, but how do we collect this data? That's where I'm going.
[00:09:20] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. So that's, you know, that's actually something that came up in another meeting that I, um, uh, presented at, uh, which included, someone from Google.
And so we were talking about AI. I was serving on a panel or that, and, uh, one of the mistaken, uh, beliefs is that, uh, you know, we have to get everything perfect before we do, before we use tech, um, someone in the audience mentioned, oh, you know, pressing a button and you get all your answers and that's, that's not, we're not there yet, obviously, but, um, but one of the problems that, uh, has faced technology and AI is it's not perfect.
Is this whole idea of, you know, perfect is the enemy of good. So if you look at the history of AI, uh, someone, someone actually presented a, a, a, a PowerPoint which showed the history of AI. And it showed that there is a really kind of a winter of AI that occurred in the 70s and 80s. Where there wasn't as much advancement.
There was a lot of advancement, you know, before the 70s, and then it sort of dropped off. And, you know, he was mentioning that one of the challenges is that people thought, okay, well, it's not there yet. Therefore, it shouldn't be used at all. Um, so similarly with with. Uh, nutrition, for example, um, there is a lot of information out there.
There's a lot of data out there, um, but we don't have data on everything. But does that, does that mean that we shouldn't use AI to help better personalized diets? No, because the, the other option is to just have one size fits all and just say, Oh, everyone should have this diet. And you know, and that's what people pushing a diet will have you believe, right?
They'll say, I don't know you Marco, but You should be on the... All cauliflower diet because I am selling it and I want you to purchase it and I want you to buy lots of cauliflower. So nothing but that. And of course you're like, no, like something else, maybe some beets with the cauliflower. But anyway, um, so you see a lot of that.
So that alternative is not going to work, right? That where you basically say, okay, everyone should be on the same diet. Um, but we have, we do have data. We do have data. We have studies in terms of how people do with different things. Uh, I am. Uh, part of something called the Nutrition for Persistent Health, NIH.
It's an NIH consortium to help better, uh, come up with more precise nutritional guidelines and dietary guidelines, nutritional recommendations, things like that. So it's all about kind of moving towards, uh, Where we want to be. Uh, I also use another analogy, a metaphor where when people, uh, people point out, well, you know, AI can't do this, or there's not enough data to do this, etc.
It's equivalent to like you going to your toddler or infant and saying, what good are you? You can't drive. You know, get away, leave this place. We know that, you know, like a toddler. Okay, yes, sure. They can't drive. They can't like buy a home or things like that. Uh, they can't give a speech or they can give a speech, but it'll be a terrible speech and their jokes will be all off.
But, um, but that doesn't mean that the toddler is useless. Uh, it means that the toddler is still growing and it's still developing. You can still learn from the toddler and this toddler can still do things. So we have to figure out. With each sector where AI is, what it can and can't do. And then.
You know, continuously offering feedback to keep, keep it growing. So I think we're at the stage where AI can help serve, identify better insights and synthesize this information, uh, when it comes to personalized health, personal, uh, precision nutrition. But we also have to keep in mind the caveats.
[00:13:13] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, and I think the caveats and I want to talk about that and something that we kind of mentioned on the other episode because I had this idea about talking about wearable, which I think it connects really well with this conversation and last time we talked about, Keeping a baseline of controlling, you know, our environment, the health, the pandemic happening, if you see something happen, maybe you don't know exactly what it is, but you're like, Hey, there is something off here.
And you were talking about how certain countries do it better than other. And how we maybe we should all do that. So I'm kind of like thinking that is on a global scale or a national scale. This is on a human body level, uh, your yourself right now. What works for you? But how do I know what is my? Normal, my baseline, but I'm guessing that the wearable technology can actually help with that.
And again, technology now is not just about telling you how many steps you took, but you know, I haven't watched it. It tells me if I have an abnormal temperature at night, my heartbeat, I use it when I exercise, I know in which zone I am, and if something is off, I can be like, hey, wait, maybe it's better if I stop for a second.
So measure calories. Is it something that we can actually tap into and still be comfortable about giving away our personal information? Because there is a trade in that's, you know, it's kind of like I want the AI to do everything for me very personalized But I don't want to share my personal thing.
It's like having a personal assistant and you're saying well, you know figure out My favorite restaurant, but you don't know what my favorite food is or if I have allergies
[00:15:12] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, I mean, you know the analogy or the metaphor or the analogy is is People, right? So, you know, if you want a person, if you want to establish a relationship with a person, and if you want that person to enhance your life or help your life, then you're going to have to tell that person about yourself.
Um, you know, you, you, you can't be a situation where you have a significant other and you say, Hey, you're supposed to know about me, but I'm not going to tell you about me. Right. So, um, so yes, so there is certainly that trade off. Um, and I think that's one of the challenges that's going to be in place going forward, um, because Yes, a lot of the, uh, a lot of things will are going to need this information or this data about you.
But as with everything, things can be used for the proper purpose and it can also be misused. Um, so this is where we really have to try to put in data safeguards or limitations or things like that. Not that those will be 100 percent foolproof, but it's stuff to think about. Um, the other thing is that, I think we, you know, wearables is something that we can, we can discuss later on or in the future, uh, you know, these can play in well with AI because AI can help identify and other types of computational approaches can help identify what data is actually needed.
Um, you know, what data is needed to really complete the picture right now, where we are with wearables and other things like that is in some cases, it's just collects information to say, let's just collect all this information that that's led to big data, right? Big data is where, uh, big data is when data is collected without a clear purpose.
Um, many of you probably have heard the, um, you know, the three V's, the five V's, the 10 V's. However, You know, definition of big data, right? We're talking about big data is high volume, high velocity, but low value. Right. You, meaning that there's a lot of useless information there and the actual useful information you have to kind of bring out and that's generated by a lot of the, you know, the, where in part by, you know, when, because you were measuring through wearables, you're measuring through browsing, all these different types of things.
So you get all of this information. Um, so. There's the balance, right? If, if, if the argument is like, we just have to collect all this data on you as opposed to this. This is the data we have to collect because it's important for this reason. That's a balance that's going to have to be figured out.
Um, because there's some data that like you're being, that's being collected on you and that's not going to help you. But it's going to help other people market to you or whatever, and all those things like that. So at some point, um, people may want to figure out, well, what are the data do you really need to collect and what data are you just collecting for the heck of it?
Or what data are you collecting? That's not going to benefit me, but it's going to benefit your other activities. And I think that's something, those are conversations that haven't really been had enough.
[00:18:25] Marco Ciappelli: Unless you're in the cybersecurity industry and you had a lot of those conversation like Yep. like I did.
Absolutely. Uh, so there, there are things in place, you know, the HIPAA for the, the medical history, healthcare and, you know, they need to follow certain regulation. But I think the real solution is, you know, they were sending the, the web three where you encrypt the data, you only decrypted when you needed to share it with someone, and then you just put it back and it belongs.
Uh, uh, unlike the big data that you were mentioning before, where for a very long time to say, well, let's collect the data. Maybe they're worth a lot of money when, uh, when we figure out what to do with that. And marketing is definitely one. But, uh, what is your position as a, as a, you know, MD? for people using, um, wearable.
[00:19:20] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, so I think it really depends on the details.
I've seen I've seen wearables range from ones that are can be very misleading, right? So it's collecting information. It's not very accurate in the information that it's collecting. It's not collecting. The right, you know, there's some wearables, they're not collecting the right information, but it basically tries to convince the wearer that, you know, this is everything, um, and this will tell you everything.
So you really actually have to look at the wearable itself. Now, that, that can range from those kind of situations to, to situations where, um, you know, the wearable is, has a reasonable amount of accuracy. It's collecting information that's scientifically valid information that, you know, scientific studies show that is actually useful.
Um, you know, the, the technology has been validated. So it's almost like saying, um, you know, Are wearables good or bad? It's similar to saying, are clothes good or bad, right? You naturally would say, what are you talking about? Um, well, maybe that's, maybe that's a great example, because it's probably a good idea to wear some kind of clothes when you're out.
But, um, but you can imagine, like, you know, there's, there's, there's a whole range of, of, like, what clothes look like and, and how useful they are and how appropriate they are.
[00:20:38] Marco Ciappelli: Or the quality. I mean, like, do they advertise that keep you warm and then they don't?
[00:20:44] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. So I would say when you, when you get a wearable, you have to ask yourself, first of all, what data is it collecting and showing?
What is the actual scientific use of that data? You know, is it because you'll see many times people make these claims and say, Oh, you can get everything from body temperature or you can get everything from heart rate. And that, that, that's BS, right? You, there's not a single measure where you can get everything.
So you have to look at the claims and you have to look at what is the scientific evidence behind those claims. And then in addition to that, you have to look at what studies have been done to prove or evaluate the, the accuracy of the data that's being collected, um, and, and presented. So I've seen people freak out where they're like.
They'll get some kind of reading on their wearable. And of course there's that disclaimer on the package that says, Oh, you know, this is not meant to be a medical instrument or medical device. And, uh, when they say stuff like that, it is not a medical device. And then, and they'll say, Oh, you should really actually check with your doctor, um, with everything.
And that's true. But many times I see that disclaimer as an umbrella to essentially. Not have to report on what the accurate actual accuracy of the device is. So we need to be, everyone needs to be informed consumers. Uh, and that, that's one of the challenge I don't see as much. Uh, so like if you, if you're going to go buy bananas, you will naturally not just say, yeah, just give me any bananas.
Yeah, sure. The completely Brown ones are fine. You know, so you look at the bananas, you look at, you know, you, you take a inspect them and you say, okay, I, this is the reason I'm going to buy these. Same thing with the herbals. You got to look at them carefully. And figure out how useful it's actually going to be.
Um, so yeah, so I'm not one of those people who looks at wearables and just rolls my eyes. They know no wearables. They can be very helpful, like any tech that can be helpful if used appropriately. But the eye roll comes when you look at some of the wearables out there and the claims that go beyond what they can actually do.
[00:22:52] Marco Ciappelli: Right, so I envision this world where, like everybody else, I don't like to go to the doctor. That's simple. I don't, I don't know. Maybe somebody do like that, but you know, I'm not one of them. And, and I'm thinking like, first of all, you waste a lot of time. You got to drive there. A lot of doctor visit. If I can, I'll do it.
Like I'm doing it with you, you know, like on a video call. And I'm thinking like, more and more, I, I think, Yeah. We're going to go into, uh, you go to the doctor now because you need to do the blood test. You need to be maybe touched. I mean, you have a broken arm. Yeah. Go to the ER. Don't, don't do, do it on a video call.
Right. But I feel like soon enough we will be able to run certain tests that normally now we do at the, at the, at the lab at home. I mean, I'm envisioning a little machine, the pipe, pick your finger and get the blood and send the reading to. Some big cloud and I analyze and gives you the, you know, your blood sugar, your potassium level, your cholesterol and all of that.
I mean, is that far?
[00:24:06] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, yeah, I think, um, uh, yeah, certainly you don't want to, like you said, you don't want, don't want it to do video when he broke your arm. You can say, I'm bleeding heavily. What should I do? Yeah, but, um, I think, uh, yeah, certainly it's going to evolve and a lot of these tests can be done.
Uh, certainly, you know, you go to lab places and you can get those tests done and then, you know, you can get the data fairly quickly and then more and more things will be able to be done at home. Now, the key thing, of course, is there has to be a reasonable amount of quality control and people have to be able to follow instructions.
Uh, so, but once those things have been figured out. Then, um, then yes, I think you're going to move to more and more towards that. Now, there are certain things where there's, at this point, there's only certain things you can get from like a, a, a prick, you know?
[00:24:54] Marco Ciappelli: No, I, I brought that as an example, but it could be like, I mean, during your breeding and I don't know, you put in a helmet and I mean, I'm, I'm like maybe a hundred years ahead in my head, but like you put in a helmet and he's.
Scan your retina, seize your eyes and, you know, measure your prescription for your eyeglasses. And
[00:25:14] Bruce Y. Lee: yep, I mean, I know a number of people and number of, uh, companies, researchers that have been working on non invasive tests. So tests, instead of, um, uh, having to draw blood, you can, you can check for things, uh, without.
breaking the skin at all. That's going to be a big deal because once you do that, because, you know, when it comes to drawing blood, you probably don't want people drawing their own blood at this point, right? You know, sticking the needle in there and all those things like that. You're going to have problems.
So, but like once you get tests that are more non invasive and the risk goes down, you don't, then you don't need the laboratory so much. To, to check some of those things. So, um, so yeah, so the key is if you can get enough quality control enough, in other words, you, uh, you know, they have a, they have a saying, it's sort of the, the, uh, for lack of better words, sort of the, the dumb control.
Right. So. When you have a product, you try to think about what is the silliest thing that someone can do with it. And if that's still okay, then that product can work, right?
[00:26:19] Marco Ciappelli: So I have a funny one. I don't know if you saw it, but I was crying, um, laughing. Um, Mercedes.
On the SUV put a there is a new technology where it makes the car bounce very slowly, but it helps you to get unstuck from mud and sand. You know, when you see, this rally in the desert that they push the car and now this start doing this on his own. Now imagine how many Mercedes owner SUV are actually going to go in the desert.
So Dave, there is this video to show how they design it, what the intention was, and what actually how the consumer use it. So they do that bouncing thing they used to do, like in the car, in the, in the hood here in LA in the seventies and eighties, where the They make the car bounce where they are in line, where they are parking in the parking lot of the mall.
They put this funny music underneath and it's the most hilarious thing. And I'm thinking like, uh, maybe the next one is going to be some kind of flame that defrosts the ice. And then people are just going to use it in a completely different way as well. So like, what's the intention and how is it going to be used?
It's pretty, it's an interesting thing. And we can go back to eating pods on TikTok. Like that's what was intended for.
[00:27:46] Bruce Y. Lee: Yes, yes. Thai pods are not supposed to go into your mouth.
[00:27:49] Marco Ciappelli: Yes. People can be really weird. So I don't know. I mean, now I'm kind of rethinking the trust of the individual in using medical advice at home So I'm walking back here
[00:28:02] Bruce Y. Lee: That's that's the main limitation because you know from a technology standpoint it can be done.
A lot of these things can be done. So individuals can take You know, uh, there was two still samples. They can take, uh, you know, spit into a jar or something like they can do these things. Now they may not do it accurately. Um, and again, like the blood test is a different story because people can do, can mess up that quite easily.
And, and I think most people. feel uncomfortable drawing their own blood. So, um, but yeah, at some point as this technology gets better and better, then, then you'll be able to gather more and more of this information at home. And it makes sense to slowly transform how health and medicine are being administered.
Um, it's funny. I, I remember, um, you know, there's some, some hardliners, um, who. Believe things should always stay the same and they'll always come up with an argument of why Oh, yep, you know, uh, the doctor's role shouldn't change and things like that So like I was I remember I was uh in a discussion those were like, um, Decade and or 15 minutes 15 years ago And someone was saying that oh the you know A doctor was saying oh the doctor is the one who's always do all the vital signs like Check the temperature and all those things like that Um, and, uh, the person said, well, there's subtle things that you can figure out, et cetera, but, you know, things evolve, right?
So you don't want people to continue to do things, which, um, which is taking up their time. Uh. And mental energy when instead you think, well, someone who's trained to do sort of other stuff, maybe it's better for them to take their time to do that. Right? So So this is where technology can really help. If you can shift a lot of these things to home, then all that data will be readily available.
So like medical professionals, then we'll have a lot more stuff already available, and then they can step in when it's actually needed.
[00:30:14] Marco Ciappelli: And we go back on that knowing what is your normal. And, and I can think about the many ways that people will abuse that by, you know, I, I'm just going to give blood from something else.
Maybe I'll draw blood from my dog or and send that and, you know, who knows what else they'll swap.
[00:30:35] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. So your clinical report comes back, well, you know, your cholesterol levels are fine, but it looks like you have fleas. You know, ,
[00:30:44] Marco Ciappelli: it makes me think about Oui, the Disney movie where it's like, yeah, we did the D N A.
Come out as rat. Uh, Um, let's go back to the diet. And then, we finish our conversation for today. So nutrition, I mean, not diet, but nutrition. So we are connected a few things here. They're all related. You know, as they say, you are what you eat. Uh, maybe, probably. Um, why in your opinion nutrition it's so hard and, you know, we can go in big corporations and capitalism and all of that, but I think I want to look at it more from a psychological Like, why wouldn't I want to be healthy if I can? There are certain things I can't prevent, but there are others that, you know, I don't think anybody would deny the fact that if you're feeling better, you, you're happier.
I don't know. Um, did you guys discuss some, I'm assuming about these factors?
[00:31:48] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah, we have to keep in mind that, that food has very strong emotional, cultural, social, behavioral meaning, right? So, Uh, if you think about it, there's, there's, food has so much meaning, so when people, uh, you know, I can give you an example.
When people go on a first date, usually food, many times food is involved, right? You have to pick the dinner location or lunch location, depending on what the first date is like, and, you know, people assess that. Both sides will assess based on what you're, you've, you've chosen and what you're eating and all this.
Like, even though that may not be accurate information, but it has a lot of meaning and, you know, you grow, you grow up with certain types of food. Um, you, uh, uh, you know, it might be like Friday night, wing night, maybe your time where you get together with all your friends or, you know, or you've got to have cake, right?
Or something, you know, all these different types of things. So it has extremely important social, cultural, behavioral meaning. And so when people eat things, they don't necessarily always just say. You know, how is this going to affect my health? People feel good if they eat certain things. They, they think of certain things.
They, they bond over certain things. They bond over drinks too. And those things like that. So, that's why it gets more challenging. Because, you can tell someone that, oh, you should just eat this. But then that person would say, well, I derive a certain set of happiness, or I just derive my social connections out of this.
Or what can I do when I go out with my friends and they all want to eat this? Uh, so that's why it's very complex. And that also factors into advertising too. So when people advertise food, look at how people are advertising food. You know, you see a commercial and they sell every, you know, you don't see one person sitting in a closet eating something right in an advertisement.
They show that this is associated with happiness. This is associated with friends. Look, everyone's happy. If you eat this, you will be happy. So, um, so it's like that. So it does make things more complex. So ultimately you have to come up with diets, a big part of. The appropriate diet or appropriate nature of the recommendations is sustainability.
Can the person actually sustain this, um, from a day to day standpoint? Design things appropriately. Otherwise, things would have no taste, right? We'd have to say, uh, Hey, Marco, here's your diet. None of these have taste, but they have the right nutrients. So you're all set, right?
[00:34:21] Marco Ciappelli: The old school pill that you give to the astronauts and say, here's your meal.
Done. The Jetson.
[00:34:28] Bruce Y. Lee: Heck, you know, it's not even just taste, right? People talk about presentation. So if, if I offered you, The same, absolutely the same diet, same nutrients, the same taste and all these things like that. Well, starting off and I said, Hey, Marco, here's, here's a, here's a presentation. And if you have the garnishes and you've got all these things like that, uh, here's where I put it all in a blender and, and, you know, Hey, it's from a Michelin five star restaurant, but it's in a blender.
You have it. And of course you'd be like, you have to drink it. Yeah. And we also have to keep in mind too, like when something's like in blended liquid form, it's not the same as taking solids, right? So if you eat something in a solid form, you might have like more benefit when it comes to fiber and you know, the actual shape and size of those things.
So it's quite complex.
[00:35:16] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I want to end that with, which I actually suggest to people to watch this, uh, the Blue Zone. It's, I don't remember the guy that made it, but he's been studying aging and nutrition for a very long time. He's a great journalist, he's entertaining and he has some great conclusion.
And I think you kind of learn about different culture and, almost like the way Things were like, you know, one of the island in Greece is one of the smallest, smallest island that for the longest time didn't even have a commercial port. So the influence that they had from tourism and from commercialization of food that is prepackaged and all of that.
It's almost an existence. I mean, they consume literally what. The island give them and it's a dry island. It's it's in, you know, it's a hot in, but they make their own wine, which is full of mineral because it's, it comes from a volcanic terrain. And they actually made it inside vase that are made of stone.
So they get the mineral from this. I mean, I'm telling you this because it's, it's full of this information. And I think yeah. Once you look at that, either you want to live a hundred and ten or a hundred or just a healthier life if you can, I think, I think there's a lot of little piece of beats to, to get, and I'm connecting it to how you started health and nutrition.
It's not just about what you eat, but also the way you grew up, your culture, your social interaction that you just said with other people. And it, it's complicated.
[00:36:55] Bruce Y. Lee: I actually had to, this was what, back, I think back in 2015. 14 or 2015, I, um, uh, spoke at the same, uh, uh, meeting that, that Dan, who, who, um, who authored the Blue Zones spoke at.
So we have a chat about this. Um, and so, yeah, it's all those things you mentioned, but it's also the social fabric too, like these places, which, which, um, you know, where I did like Okinawa and. Uh, some of these other locations, um, there's a, there's a very strong social fabric where people kind of take care of each other.
Um, and, um, and they feel very connected. So feeling like you're connected with, with something bigger than yourself is really important when it comes to health. Um, so yeah, all of these external factors actually matter quite significantly. Um, that's, again, that's why there's not, not a magical diet, like the context actually matters.
Um, so you can, you can take this diet. Medical diet, all that you want, but like, it's, you know, the diet composition may be different. And also like, if you, if you're like sitting there in the middle of the woods with no one else around you, it's going to have a different effect versus if you're around people who, you know, actually take care of you.
[00:38:03] Marco Ciappelli: Yep. Yep, absolutely. Yep. Very complex complexity. We always end up there and how people hope that, as you said before, there is... Just give me a button. Just give me the easy button, right? The easy peel or the easy button or the solution to everything so that I don't have to, I don't have to actually make effort to make it happen.
I don't want to run every day, but I want to be in perfect shape.
[00:38:30] Bruce Y. Lee: Yep. Our society, many times kind of individual biases too. Like they tend to lean towards, yeah. Give me the simple answer, simple answer, simple answer, simple answer. And, you know, you have to appreciate the complexity. Now that doesn't mean that answer will be complicated or complex, but at least you have to really take into account these different things.
[00:38:51] Marco Ciappelli: Yep, absolutely. And advertising is, I agree, is definitely not helping. So you don't want to smoke the cigarettes that are smoked by the doctor, like they used to tell us in the 60s. Not that I was there in the 60s, but I've seen those ads. Anyway, what I, what I am advertising is that if you enjoy this conversation, dear listener or viewer, You go back because we already had, uh, I think three, uh, four of these, and, uh, we always cover something different.
I think we're getting better and better in our conversations. At least that's what I tell myself. And, uh, and no matter what, I enjoy it. So I hope people enjoy it. I always, uh, have fun chatting and it makes me think about new episode to, to do in the future because there's so much to talk about.
Healthcare. Technology and humans that a carbon factor that walks into the bar with the silicone and the cell. So Bruce was great to hang out with you. Thank you so much.
[00:39:56] Bruce Y. Lee: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, Marco. And I think we're like, um, hopefully like an AI algorithm, things get better each time. So we're learning.
So yeah, once again, greetings from, or, um, I guess salutations from Oregon, uh, and always, always great to get a chance to chat.
[00:40:13] Marco Ciappelli: Yep, same here. All right, everybody stay tuned, subscribe, and we'll meet again with Bruce next month. So look forward to that. At least I know I will. Take care.