The Apollo moon landing was a historic leap for humanity—but for some, it was also a battle for equality and recognition. LA Made: The Other Moonshot, a new podcast from LAist Studios, uncovers the untold story of three Black aerospace engineers who helped make Apollo possible while facing systemic discrimination. Host Joanne Higgins, whose godfather was one of these pioneers, joins Redefining Society & Technology to share their legacy and the ongoing fight for inclusion in science and technology. Because progress isn’t just about reaching new frontiers—it’s about who gets to be part of the journey.
Guest:
Guest: Joanne Higgins
👉 https://laist.com/podcasts/la-made
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society & Technology Podcast
Visit Marco's website 👉 https://www.marcociappelli.com
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Show Notes Blog:
The moon landing was one of humanity’s most celebrated achievements—a technological marvel, a leap into the unknown, and a moment that defined an era. But history is often incomplete, and some of the most brilliant minds behind that achievement were left out of the story.
That’s where LA Made: The Other Moonshot comes in. Host Joanne Higgins takes us on a journey to uncover the untold contributions of three Black aerospace engineers who helped make the Apollo mission possible—despite facing systemic discrimination every step of the way. These men weren’t just solving some of the most complex engineering challenges of their time; they were also battling for their place in an industry that barely acknowledged them.
Joanne’s personal connection to this story—growing up hearing these experiences firsthand from her godfather, Charlie Cheathem—drove her to document their legacy before it was lost. What she uncovered is more than just a piece of forgotten history; it’s a story about resilience, recognition, and the ongoing struggle for inclusion in science and technology.
In this episode of Redefining Society & Technology, we explore not just the space race but the human race—the fight for acknowledgment, the hidden struggles behind innovation, and the lasting impact of these unsung pioneers. Because technology is only part of the equation; the people behind it matter just as much.
Let’s talk about it.
Subscribe to this Redefinign Sociey & Technology podcast on your favorite Podcast Player and stay tuned for the next episode!
Thank you for listening,
Marco Ciappelli
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Resources/References
LA Made: The Other Moonshot
Exploring stories of bold Californian innovators and how they forever changed the lives of millions all over the world.
“LA Made: The Other Moonshot,” tells the story of three Black aerospace engineers in Los Angeles, who played a crucial role in America’s race to space, amid the civil unrest of the 1960s. Host Joanne Higgins grew up hearing her godfather tell stories about his work on the Apollo mission to the moon. But as an adult, Higgins realizes his contributions – and those of other Black engineers – had been overlooked and left out of history books. She sets out to correct that and ensure their stories are finally told. Join Higgins in this four-part series, as three “hidden figures” give their accounts for the first time of their experiences in aerospace that broke racial barriers and helped the U.S. land on the moon.
👉 https://laist.com/podcasts/la-made
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Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] Hello, everybody. Welcome back to an episode of Redefining Society and Technology podcast with me, Marco Ciappelli. Today is one of those episodes that I was a little bit indecised if I wanted to go on audio signals where I tell stories and talk with storytellers Or to stay in the technology and society and I just made And I'm going to pick and we were even talking with the guest here before I started that it could have gone both places.
So I don't know, maybe you'll hear it in both places, wherever you are right now, that's the right place anyway. Um, the story it's fascinating and also something that is going to make us think, which is my main objectives. One of the, my main objectives in doing the podcast, making people think sometimes. I don't have the answer, the guest doesn't have the answer, but we have enough topics to go over that we hope people will think [00:01:00] about what we talk in the episode. And today we're going to talk about something that I love. It's space exploration, it's NASA history, it's the Apollo mission, the going to the moon.
I was born in 1969, so I was too little. But, you know, that's kind of, I identify myself with 1969 and going to the moon as a really, really big thing for us. And many people participated in this incredible adventure, and it was a big effort, a lot of money were invested, a lot of people, that got involved, but maybe not everybody got recognized as much as they should have.
And Joanne, here, Joanne Higgins, She has a podcast and a story to share that she was already sharing on our podcast But she wanted to be on my show I welcome her on my show because I want to hear firsthand what the story is about why you decided to tell this story on a podcast format and [00:02:00] And why do you think is important?
So this is my intro now, it's your turn Joanne. Welcome to the show I'm so pleased For you to be here.
Joanne Higgins: Thank you. I'm very excited, actually, to be here.
Marco Ciappelli: Very good.
Joanne Higgins: And talk about podcast. Yes.
Marco Ciappelli: Oh, yeah, we could talk just about podcast in general, but I think we will miss an opportunity to talk about something very, very important.
So let's talk with, let's start with a little bit about you, who are you, what you do, and how you ended up, you know, maybe podcasting and sharing this important story.
Joanne Higgins: Um, Professionally, I've been, uh, a home builder for the last several years, but early in my career, I worked in film and television production and had hoped to become [00:03:00] a journalist actually.
Uh, but life took the direction that it took. So that didn't happen. And I was fine with that. I was fine building houses. Then, My, my godfather, who I grew up with, worked in aerospace. He's 95 years old now. So he worked in the beginnings of, before it was even called aerospace. He loves to tell me that story.
Before it was even cool. Yeah, before it was even called aerospace. He, he, he worked in it. They, they hadn't had a name for it yet. So he, cause he started working, uh, Uh, for North American Aviation in 1951. So, yeah. So, I grew up hearing stories of, uh, [00:04:00] him at work. And I was young. I didn't think a lot about the stories that he was telling me.
And when he, he ended up, uh, At the hospital at one point, and I went to visit, and while I was there, one of his old time colleagues came in, and they started talking about the Apollo launches at Cape Canaveral. And I had not remembered anything about the Apollo launches, him discussing that with me, and it just really piqued my interest.
I happened to have a cell phone at the time, and I taped their conversation. Which was really candid. Um, and they not only talked about how wonderful it was to be part of that program, [00:05:00] but then the conversation shifted to the treatment that they and the problems that they had, uh, the just the daily discrimination that they were challenged with.
And yeah, so I just, I thought after I got home, I listened. to the tape. And I thought, wow, I didn't know this and I didn't know that. And I started thinking back to my history and background that I learned in school about the Apollo missions. And they didn't talk about any of that, even though it happened during the height of the civil rights movement.
And I wasn't even aware that there were people of color. involved in it. So I thought if I don't know this, [00:06:00] maybe others are don't know it as well. So I started like asking my group, you know, asking, Hey, what do you know about the Apollo program? And then when I would tell them about men of color working in it, they were surprised.
So I thought, well, this might be A good podcast, a good way to get their stories out.
Marco Ciappelli: Was this before or after the Hidden Figures movie?
Joanne Higgins: It was after, it was after.
Marco Ciappelli: So you, you kind of had that as, oh, there was that going on, right? I think that was for people that were not connected with somebody like you in the family or friends.
That was already like a big revelation. To, to watch that movie, read that book and so you, you actually say, you know what, that's a good story. I have, I have [00:07:00] another one and I'm sure there are more,
Joanne Higgins: um, yes, there are more. I, I've discovered more in my research, talking to a lot of other people who were, who were involved,
Marco Ciappelli: right? Right. So that's, that's the journalist in you, because I'm picturing you in this room at the hospital and be like, wait, wait a minute, I have a, you know, I can't record this thanks to technology. And, you know, I mean, that that's a journalistic action and way of thinking right there. And then say, well, maybe there is something you can tell it.
Now, When you told, uh, your, uh, the people that were talking about this, uh, your in law and, and, and his friend, were they happy to share this story as if recorded or it was kind of like, Oh, where are you going with this?
Joanne Higgins: No,
they were not happy. [00:08:00] They were very reluctant to, to talk about it because I mean, like I said, my, my godfather at that time was, he was in his early 90s.
And, uh, At first, I just focused on him and he felt no one would be interested and then he I connected with some other engineers that that he gave me other people to talk to, and they were not really that interested either. They thought, you know, I did this a long time ago. No one cares about what I did in aerospace.
Yeah,
so I had to convince. One gentleman, Nate, in particular, I really had to like call him and plead with him.
Marco Ciappelli: So how did it go in terms of [00:09:00] going from the idea? You know, now I like to dive into the story on how this became a story. Um, getting this inspiration, this idea, recording, getting in touch with people, and then actually turn it into reality, which is a podcast that now you have.
It's called. The other moonshot. Yes. And, uh, and it's already out, but probably by the time that I publish this, there is be probably a few episode out. Um, I know at the time of recording, there is at least two, maybe three, something like that. Um, so how did you put together the podcast? Were you still connected with the podcast industry?
Joanne Higgins: No, I was not, I had no, No. Yeah, no connection with it. I just knew, I thought the best way to do it was, was through a podcast and at the time I thought the easiest I learned. Neither one of those were quite [00:10:00] exactly true . To a certain extent. To certain extent, yes. What I felt was a good, uh, public radio I thought would serve it best.
And I live in Los Angeles, and we have two public radio stations, and one of them I listen to all the time. So, I had set my sights on that one. I just focused on, okay, that's who I'm gonna get. So I started going to their events that they would have. And at one of the events I went to, I sat next to a wonderful woman, who's now my partner, and we just started small talking.
and, and I shared the story with her and she liked the story. And then I find out later that she was a senior news [00:11:00] editor for the public radio station. So we collaborated and she pitched it to them and they green-lit it.
Marco Ciappelli: Very good. I love that. So what's the story? Let's dive into that. So they're, they are, uh, they were, they still are, but they were engineer in the sixties. working on NASA, working on the Apollo mission, and my understanding is that they were covering, I mean, they were a very relevant role for the success of the mission. So, tell me, give me the background of their position at the time in, in the story.
Joanne Higgins: Okay. Um, my godfather first, as I mentioned, he started in the 1950s before, It was in AeroSpace. He was working on, uh, [00:12:00] designing, uh, bombers, parts for, uh, for aircraft bombers. And then when, uh, North American Aviation got the contract to design elements of the Apollo, they got the contract to design the second stage rocket. and the command module, which are two really important parts of the rocket.
Yes. So my godfather was put on that program that was designing that. And I love the story he tells me is that at that time in the beginning, They had written on a NASA, had written on a piece of paper, build us something to get us within the vicinity of the moon. That's all [00:13:00] they had.
Marco Ciappelli: Right. I mean, just like, Hey, so yeah.
You'll go with that.
Joanne Higgins: Right. And look what they did. I mean, that's what was the germ of an idea. Right. That's what they came up with. Um, he was tasked with this process of configuration management. which is like, uh, it's how you identify the different parts of the rocket. Because when a rocket goes up and if something happens, you can't really get it back.
So each piece has like numbers with it that help identify what the part was and what and and and what it actually does. So that is that was something he actually developed. Um, and then oversaw. And it [00:14:00] was very important because nothing could be go to get be designed, actually manufactured without him stamping that it was indeed the paperwork said.
Marco Ciappelli: Wow.
Joanne Higgins: So that it was a very, very important position.
Marco Ciappelli: Absolutely.
Joanne Higgins: And then, and my father, my godfather's name is Charlie Cheatham. And Nate Nathaniel, Nathaniel Levert worked in rocket propulsion. And he helped create, makes the rocket go.
And Shelby Jacobs, also an engineer. He, he did, A couple of different things, but the thing that he's [00:15:00] most known for is a camera system that was attached to the rocket that actually took photo, the first photo of the curvature of Earth from space. So they all did really incredible things.
Marco Ciappelli: Okay, so tell me this, because, you know, that's, that's where my mind start to go in a lot of different direction.
And then, and then I. You do all of this and, and you got crickets, right? Like, no, nobody's going to actually attach your name to the big project. They wouldn't not happen if it were, if you didn't contribute to that. Or maybe it would have happened in a different way. Somebody else way of taking care of it.
Maybe it wouldn't succeed. Maybe it will succeed. I mean, success [00:16:00] can happen in a lot of different ways, but they were definitely part of that. And so all of a sudden, though, we get to the moon, we go back to the moon, then there's no budget to go to the moon. But that's a different story for people that want to hear the history of NASA.
And and and they just realize they maybe they knew it already at the time that they were not going to be. In the movie, right? I mean, in the production, their credits, if you want to do a reference to the movie, they were not even credited for it. And tell me, like, how they felt about it, besides the fact that they didn't even want to then go and And talk about it again.
Joanne Higgins: Yeah, that that it's interesting how you put it. They never expected to get any credit because, of course, they they work as a [00:17:00] team. But what they didn't expect was to constantly fight to do their jobs.
Marco Ciappelli: There you go. OK.
Joanne Higgins: And to be respected and paid equally to their white counterparts. They didn't expect that or for their job. When they solved a problem for someone else to take the credit for it.
They didn't expect those things.
And those were the constant things that they had to experience.
Marco Ciappelli: So that's, that's me thinking there was an environment that was somehow okay. But then you don't get the recognition. So I kind of jumped the gun there and I went to the end of it.
But the truth is what actually was happening. While you're doing this important work, you also have to work in [00:18:00] an environment that it's just not
Joanne Higgins: hostile.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, it was a hostile environment,
Joanne Higgins: which is why we call it the other moonshot, because there was the the moonshot, which was this incredible world experience. And then there was the moonshot that was their social. Experience, and they were all of these men were very often more qualified than their bosses, especially educationally, they had more education.
Marco Ciappelli: So, in a way to be in order to be there, they needed to be way better in order to get the job that a lot of people would have got.
Yes. Being as qualified, which is the story that is repeating today for, you know, when we talk about diversity inclusion and, [00:19:00] and, and, and all those important things that I think we, we tend to just forget and brush and kind of like put under the rug. But the truth is, is that, is it changed on your opinion?
Um, no, the best now?
Joanne Higgins: Well, well, of course. I mean, we've definitely made headway. What's been interesting for me with the podcast and doing events and getting to talk to young engineers now, they're telling me that they're having some similar experiences, not as extreme as, as, as, as my men. And I'm sure part of that is because of the period that my men came up.
And I mean, All my men actually grew up in Jim Crow period and then transitioned into aerospace. So [00:20:00] they grew up in a period where they were treated less than, and then Ended up in this huge program where they were also treated less than
Marco Ciappelli: so here's one connection with with technology when we were talking at the beginning is like, you know, how we're telling a story if there is a connection with technology.
I'm going to give it to you right now because I do a lot of work with the cyber security industry and. If there is one thing that I also discuss is the diversity and inclusion aspect because it's an industry where there is actually a lack of resources in term of people needed in the industry, but there is this gap between the job available and the people doing it.
There is also much more male, white oriented versus women inclusion and diversity [00:21:00] and different kind of people. And when I talk to people that work for organizations that want, obviously, to promote this, everybody's telling me that when the team is diverse in every possible way, it's a better team. You come up with a better idea.
You come up with better solutions. You, you can think outside of the box compared with when. You work with a team that is homogeneous and that would work different aspects. So I'm thinking like this contribution that they brought to the table again, it could have been something that maybe, um, other people would have not come up with.
And, and it's hard to hear that nowadays still. We build a technology that is much so not inclusive in the term of the people that [00:22:00] work on the project and actually the people that then receive the technology. Am I making any, any sense that there's a connection with kind of like the story that you're also presenting?
Joanne Higgins: Yes, I, I, I, at first I thought it might not be relevant for years now and then I've learned. It is still quite relevant.
Marco Ciappelli: So tell me about this feedback a little bit, a little bit more. So you go out there, they hear you at the podcast, and you go to this event, and I'm sure the first thing you hear probably is, I had no idea.
Right? And then Yes, I do. Right? So that's how it starts. And then what else? I mean, what are you helping, in your opinion, um, achieving with sharing these stories?
Joanne Higgins: Adding to the [00:23:00] history to a very established history, uh, because everyone knows about aerospace and the way the industry's transitioned with, uh, the companies that SpaceX and Blue Horizon, there's a lot of interest in, in space and, and as the men always say to me, what's happening now.
is what we started. They're using a lot of the technology that we we ushered. In fact, I mean, I, as I was doing my research, so many of the things that have just ballooned technically started as a result of trying to send men to the moon. Our cell phones, uh, one of the big ones [00:24:00] because they had to learn.
to really minimize things to go up in space. They couldn't be big and bulky. So that's when they started making things, really trying to see how small they could get things. And the result now is, you know, these cell phones that we carry in our pockets, in our purses. So
Marco Ciappelli: computers and medicine, remote medicine, telemedicine, that something happened out there and there is a delay in the way you communicate.
There is not a doctor on board. I mean, we're talking about things that could happen when you go to Mars where you do have no GPS.
Joanne Higgins: Yeah,
Marco Ciappelli: the GPS, I mean, there's
Joanne Higgins: just it. These guys, that technology started with aerospace and going to the moon [00:25:00]
Marco Ciappelli: and the problem solving. Right. I mean, I know from reading some of the books about Yeah.
The space program that even the rendezvous concept wasn't even an option until towards the end. I mean, the idea was we get a rocket, we land it on the moon, and then we take off again. And people were like, yeah, but it's too heavy to land to start with. So I love how you presented it. It's like, okay. We need to get in the vicinity of the moon.
Joanne Higgins: Yes, they weren't even, yeah, they weren't planning. They hadn't really decided if they wanted to land or not.
Marco Ciappelli: Think about the responsibility for, for doing that kind of job and, and the, and the pressure that they were living with. Um, what other things are you learning by telling this story? Because here's podcaster myself, I feel [00:26:00] like every time I have a conversation, I'm just learning something new every, every episode I, it's like, I'm reading a book, like, so I'm sure as you go, you probably found yourself into unveiling certain concepts and stories that you haven't even had idea of maybe even your first time.
Sure. thinking was changing as, as you were building, you know, with, with the production and, and with the guests and writing the story. What happened? How did evolve your, your way of thinking about this?
Joanne Higgins: One big thing I learned that I had no idea that I was remotely interested in is, um, that I like science.
You didn't know that. Oh, in fact, I completely always avoided science because I'm not very good at math. So I always thought, you know, I can't [00:27:00] really be any type of a scientist or care that much about it because I'm so math challenged. And I learned science is a lot of different things and that I actually like it.
And I like history. So I also learned that science and history can collide and that's what one of the big things about the podcast that I've experienced is I was curious about this period of time in Los Angeles and to find out that all of this happened in in this city that I grew up in was just amazing And, and I learned that, uh, the aerospace industry in [00:28:00] Los Angeles helped create a black middle class.
That was a big thing that I learned.
Marco Ciappelli: Tell me a little bit more about that, because that's another good connection between society and technology and the other way. Can you tell me more about that?
Joanne Higgins: I had, I, I knew we had the great migration and a lot of People of color came from the south and came here, but I was curious about what kind of jobs they were able to get and because of the aerospace industry and the mandate that was part of the aerospace industry, which was there was a mandate because it was a taxpayer program.
So that meant. They had to allow everybody, [00:29:00] especially people of color, to be part of it. That allowed people who were getting educations, black people who had been to a war and had gotten an education, it allowed them to work. in an industry that provided security for them. They were able to get insurance, be part of credit unions.
All of those things create middle classes. So the aerospace industry was very much responsible in Los Angeles for creating middle class communities for people of color.
Marco Ciappelli: That's, that's an interesting perspective, but you mentioned something at the beginning where, um, on a certain point, they found out that they were even [00:30:00] making as close as what other people were making.
So yes, yes, it thankfully was a positive thing that happened, but it was far obviously from perfect. Nobody would have probably believed it was perfect, but you know, that's another reason why it wasn't. And, and there was a big disparity there.
Joanne Higgins: Yes, there was. And they found out about it. And they did what, what you do when you find out about those disparities.
They organized and, and protested and, and tried to get it changed. But it was never changed for them. It wasn't. They continued throughout their careers to work in the industry. They're always getting less than they're, they're white.
Marco Ciappelli: Were they, I mean, did people, you say created [00:31:00] the middle class, but also I'm feeling like that it probably motivated kids, younger, the younger generation to look up at them, get them as an inspirational story.
Say, well, if they broke those glass ceiling and we can, we can do that too. So go to school, become an engineer, dream one day to work in that industry as well. Do you think it got easier?
Joanne Higgins: That was one of the things that I used to convince the men to tell their stories. And as it has turned out. I have personally been privy to some young engineers who actually have, these men have inspired.
A couple of them had [00:32:00] meant they were, they had mentorships where they inspired, uh, other young engineers. So, yes.
Marco Ciappelli: And how do they feel now that they listen to the podcast?
Joanne Higgins: Yes. We had a listening session where where they got to listen to episode one with their families. And it was quite amazing.
Marco Ciappelli: Um,
Joanne Higgins: for them, I mean, they got very emotional about it.
Um, the other thing that I had learned from the families while I was interviewing them were family members would say to me, wow. I never knew this story because these men that they were engineers, they went to work when they came home. They didn't talk about their work and they definitely didn't talk about discrimination or, or, or anything [00:33:00] like that with their families.
And they were really happy to be on this program. That was. world world known. So now they're actually talking about emotionally, they're feeling how they felt. And that has been just eye opening for not only me, but their own families.
Marco Ciappelli: I love it. And I love how you, I mean, you need to have, I mean, everybody has a story.
Every job I believe is important, you know, it's kind of like, this is rocket science, so that's really, you know, brain surgery, rocket science, right? But, but also I like to think that it doesn't matter what you do, your job is important. Otherwise it wouldn't be, it wouldn't be a job. It's important for society in a way or in [00:34:00] another.
But when you actually get more of the spotlight in something that, I mean, yeah, it went. We went to the moon because of that. So, it, it, there is definitely a, a more, uh, I'm not gonna say interesting, but definitely a story that resonate a little bit, that echoes a little bit more far. So, their contribution actually in sharing it, and your contribution in sharing it, I think it's, it's exactly this, is to let people know about it.
I didn't know about it. Now I know and hopefully other people that have been listening to the podcast, mine and, and your podcast, obviously they, they will know about it and maybe they'll, they'll share it. So I will like for you, I want to end with two things. One, I'll, I'll, we'll do it at the end. I want you to do a little pitch for inviting people to listen to, to the podcast, but before we go there.
Um, I am [00:35:00] assuming that from the way you talk about it, that you do like, that you did like doing this, I think. Uh, tell me if I'm wrong, but I think I can tell from your face that, you know, maybe you have some other ideas. So I want to know, does this kind of awake, uh, even more the journalist in you? Uh, do you have any other project in mind after this?
Joanne Higgins: It definitely awoke the sleeping. Journalists, like when you wake the sleeping giant, though, you gotta get out of the way, right? Right, right, exactly. So you don't get stepped on. So, it, it has, yeah, cause I, yeah, I hadn't, uh, seen myself really doing it. So, have some other ideas.
Marco Ciappelli: Okay.
Joanne Higgins: Yeah. Thinking about podcasting and building
Marco Ciappelli: [00:36:00] Okay. That, that, you know, as they say, talk what you know about .
Joanne Higgins: Exactly. They also say stories you wanna tell are usually right. Near you. Right. Which is what I discovered personally.
Marco Ciappelli: And you had no idea. So that's, that's really, really cool. So, okay. So I don't want you to, to, to tell me what you're in your mind, but maybe one day when you figure it out, what the next story is going to be, maybe you'll come back and, and share it with me and, uh, and with our audience.
And, uh, yeah, now I love for you to. So, really, in your own words, invite people to, to listen to, to the other moonshot.
Joanne Higgins: Well, I, I would like very much for people to listen to the other moonshot and discover what I discovered [00:37:00] about three amazing black engineers in the 1950s and 1960s who helped send America to the moon.
Marco Ciappelli: I think that's a good story. To learn about, and I hope that everybody enjoy the way that we share this here on redefining society and technology podcast. I sure had a good time with you, Joanne, and I'm very honored that you came here and shared the story. And I can't wait to go and listen myself to your story.
Um, and, uh, and then maybe we'll, we'll get back on it again when you, you know, on your next story, or maybe that will trick me. To talk more about this story as well as I love, um, all that you share with, with me today. So, thank you very much.
Joanne Higgins: Thank you so much for having me. It was, it was really such a pleasure.
Marco Ciappelli: Alrighty, same here. And for everybody else, stay tuned, subscribe and, [00:38:00] uh, there'll be many more, uh, stories coming to you from Redefining Society and Technology podcast. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye, Marco. Bye!