In this episode of 'Redefining Society Podcast Series: Once Upon A Time, Tomorrow', Marco Ciappelli and Carey D'Souza grapple with the evolving concept of privacy in our increasingly connected world.
Guests:
Rafael Brown, CEO/Founder at Symbol Zero
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/rafaelbrown/
Carey D'Souza, CEO and Co-Founder at IAMPASS [@iampassHQ]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/careydsouza/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/carey_dsouza
Sean Martin, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining CyberSecurity Podcast [@RedefiningCyber]
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/sean-martin
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast and Audio Signals Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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This Episode’s Sponsors
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Episode Introduction
Welcome back, dear listeners, to another time-traveling episode of "Once Upon A Time, Tomorrow." I'm your host, Marco Ciappelli, and as usual, we're diving deep into the interplay between our past, present, and the anticipated future. Missing in action today are our usual suspects, Sean and Raphael, but no worries, the conversation is as gripping as ever!
In this digital age, where our every move, like, and share is broadcast for the world to see, we find ourselves pondering a critical question: What does privacy truly mean today? Is it the same privacy we remember from our X-generation days, or has the explosion of technology and global connectedness reshaped its very essence? It feels as though we're caught in a never-ending cycle of sharing and oversharing, with the consequences of our online actions often lurking in the shadows, waiting to pounce when least expected.
Joining the discussion today is Carey D'Souza, a technology expert who's no stranger to the complexities of the digital realm. Together, we dissect the phenomenon of public lives in an age where posting our personal moments has become second nature. But, as we dive deeper into the rabbit hole, the contradictions surface. We crave privacy while simultaneously feeding the very platforms that diminish it. And with every click, share, and post, we inadvertently scribble away a bit more of what used to be our personal narrative.
Is our understanding of privacy merely a relic of the past? Or do we need to redefine its parameters for a society that's drastically different from a mere two decades ago? As we traverse the timelines—from the nostalgia of analog to the pulsating beats of the digital age—let's uncover the surprising parallels and disconcerting divergences that shape our understanding of private versus public.
So, whether you're a dreamer, a realist, or simply a curious soul yearning to understand the shifting sands of our digital society, this episode promises insights, revelations, and perhaps a few "aha" moments. Sit back, relax, and let's explore the evolving definition of privacy in our digital world.
Ready to embark on this enlightening journey? Hit play! 🎧
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Resources
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To see and hear more Redefining Society stories on ITSPmagazine, visit:
https://www.itspmagazine.com/redefining-society-podcast
Watch the webcast version on-demand on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnYu0psdcllTUoWMGGQHlGVZA575VtGr9
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Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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[00:00:00] Marco Ciappelli: Well, hello everybody. This is Marco Ciappelli, and this is Once Upon a Time Tomorrow. And, uh, today, uh, if you're watching the video, you may be thinking what happened to Sean and Raphael. And the answer to that is that we don't know. They uh, they didn't show up for some reason. We hope they're fine And I think it's uh, you know, we gotta respect that Kerry.
It's uh their privacy
[00:00:32] Carey D'Souza: To the whole I was thinking just we were just talking about um, hi folks. This is Kerry. This was uh here um, but I mean, it's kind of funny you said that we don't know where Raph and Sean are but um If you really wanted to find out and we just track their social media posts, we potentially can figure out what they're up to.
And that seems to be, that seems to be the norm. And more, we are willingly sharing our data online, yet at the same time, we also want more security and more privacy. So, I mean, That seems a bit contrarian to me, like you want to, I want to tell you where I am, but I don't want you to know where I am. Does that make sense?
That's what it seems to me.
[00:01:21] Marco Ciappelli: I want to show you my selfie in front of the fell tower, but I don't, I don't want you to know where I am. You're kind of battling this need to be on social media of sharing everything. But also, hey, you still need to respect my privacy when I decide. Not to share something. So what does privacy mean now?
[00:01:43] Carey D'Souza: Yeah. So, so does that mean that, okay, you know that I'm in Paris, but, um, but you don't know where I'm staying or what I'm doing or what I'm doing unless I share with you. So again, that's the confusing bit, right? I mean, there was, there's this case that, um, more and more people are saying, do not sell my data.
When we buy stuff on credit card, we sign up on the website. Everybody's saying, do not sell my data. Um, but yet at the same time, why don't, so there's two reasons to not sell the data. Is it, are they, are they concerned that people are going to monetize that data and they're not going to see any of it? Or the other concern is, um, if you have my data, then you know exactly what I'm doing and where I'm going to go.
But the latter bit, I'm already doing that. Every time I do a, do a post on Instagram or tell people on LinkedIn or announce my, Um, announce my whatever I'm doing on Twitter or which is now X on X, we are willingly telling people what's going on. So what, what is so in my generation, privacy or I'm guessing you and I Marco for us, privacy meant that, hey.
It's if I tell you something great, that's public knowledge. Do what you want. And most of the stuff it's private. My, my, what I do, my birthday parties with my friends and stuff, very private. I'll take pictures, but share with very few friends. But that seems to have gone away and privacy today seems to be more like, hey stranger, look what I'm doing.
I'm climbing Yosemite. I'm climbing, climbing, I'm hiking through Yosemite and look what a gorgeous picture it is. Yet, I'm also going to be upset if you... If you now know where I am and start sending me ads or start sending me. So if an REI looks at it and say, Oh, this person likes hiking and I'm going to start sending ads to them to buy more stuff.
Um, so is that what privacy means that I can tell you what, where I am and what I'm doing, but. You're not allowed to use that data to do anything. Is that what we are thinking of privacy?
[00:03:54] Marco Ciappelli: I I think I think what you're going with this is Can you decide to turn on and off if we were talking about cyber security?
We will call it maybe control right like What would you want it to share at any given time when it's? You have a return by sharing something because, okay, let's take Amazon as an example. They know what you buy and they suggest you things. I mean, they kind of invented that in a way and, uh, or Netflix, right?
I mean, we talked about this in the, in the past and music and it's kind of cool. Like, you know, if you don't know, I don't like this kind of thing. Don't, don't suggest it to me, but at the same time, you do know. And I think that the bottom line is that people are not really realizing how much they are sharing and they are not willingly sharing maybe, but they don't realize to the extent of what it's gonna come back to them.
It's not just the good product, but also sharing the fact that, I don't know, maybe you're going through some health issues. And you're looking for something that, by aggregating the data, it's easy to see, and maybe you don't want to share that.
[00:05:19] Carey D'Souza: And that's the scary part, right?
[00:05:21] Marco Ciappelli: It's tough. It's tough because you don't know and often you can.
I mean, I know, but I realize sometimes screw it. Just whatever. Get the cookies. What do you do?
[00:05:33] Carey D'Souza: The cookie thing is another one, right? The cookie thing is a bit of a joke. Like who, who really has time to do when you're browsing online? Do we really go? I do that for some sites, but it's hard. You go through and you have to select which cookies you want.
So, um, the default seems to be accept all. So what have we really done except basically legally cover our asses? I mean, that's what we, I think most, most companies legally have covered their asses and said, right, we, we've told you and you accepted it. So now we can do whatever you want. So. We've literally put a band aid on top of
it.
[00:06:07] Marco Ciappelli: But do you, do you think that the everyday user, I mean, you, you love technology. We both talk about even the title of this series, which again, usually is four of us, but it's a two, it's like once upon a time tomorrow, we like to compare the analog with the digital of what, technology used to be and what it is now.
I'm wondering if either, both actually, the native. Mobile generation, like smartphone, internet, but also people like us, we just, do we know to what extent we are dealing with? I mean, maybe we do because it's kind of our job. You are also in security and, you know, and I talk about that all the time, but the everyday person doesn't really care anymore.
[00:06:56] Carey D'Souza: Do they understand the content? I mean, for me, that's the thing, right? I mean, I see parents posting their minor kids photographs and whereabouts. And I think that's, that's way for me, that's sort of a gray area where, okay, the minor kids not able to make decisions for. Uh, they're not able to make decisions for themselves yet.
And the parents are basically doing this for their benefit, getting clicks on social media. So what, so imagine a kid by the time he or she, uh, um, or they go to college, everything about them is already known. So there's nothing new to discover. People, people can just look at their social media profile or the parent's social media profile and say, I already know these things.
Now there's a good and bad part of it. It can, it can, um, maybe it can allow the college or the institution to sort of organize groups where, where they see, um, people easily assimilating with each other and, and getting along nicely. But the flip side is that there is one, there is nothing new to discover.
There's no discovery. Like I already know everything about you to, I have now data that I can potentially. use or misuse to, to manipulate you. And I think that's what people don't realize. Like if I, if I, I mean, I'm just using a very simple example, oversimplifying. If I say my, if I say my kid's favorite thing is chocolate cake and that person would do anything for chocolate cake, it's a weakness.
Now somebody reading in college and like, all right, if I want this person to do my homework or. I can just offer, I bribe them. So stuff like that, I mean, I'm just oversimplifying, but I'm just saying that data and how powerful data can be, um, and how bad it can be in the wrong hands. And then do we, and while our kids don't know the implications of sharing stuff, do we as adults have a responsibility to sort of.
I mean, in this Facebook generation, um, do we, do we have responsibility to educate people about, hey, data once out there is there permanently and while it might get you likes today. Five years later, that data might be the exact thing that you don't want online. Yep. So how do we?
[00:09:30] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I just published an episode, actually, and it's a book it's called Growing Up in Public, Coming of Age in a Digital World. And this is what, with an expert, and it was an amazing conversation where she, she's She's talking about all these things, like we, as parents or as, younger generation, we put everything online and can we, can we evaluate what the consequence of this is?
And we do it so freely. And, and I'm thinking about what you just said and, You know, like when you have the questions to prove that the account yours, like the city you were born, your first car, your favorite movie. And I can put anything I want because you don't know. I mean, until the internet now, now you may know where I was born, of course, but you know, what was my first car?
I didn't post a picture of my first car on the internet. Now, technically you can go back from the day that somebody was born. And rebuild an entire, I mean I'm going dystopian here, but you can rebuild an entire persona of this individual because you know everything or most of the things this person has done and he wasn't even this person that posted.
The parents did, the grandparents did, they're You know,
[00:10:55] Carey D'Souza: I'll call some detail like, like you said, what's your favorite car, your favorite restaurant, your first time you met someone. So, um, that's a lot of personal data. Well, I mean, I never, and this is, this is something for people that if you ever encountered that kind of question, don't put the city you were born and just choose a random city that you can remember.
Don't choose your favorite car, choose, choose something else that you can remember. So that way, uh, that way. And the other thing is like, what's your favorite song? Like my favorite song changes every week.
[00:11:32] Marco Ciappelli: I know, right? But your first car, your first car doesn't, that's your first car. So yeah, you're going to have to lie.
You have to lie.
[00:11:43] Carey D'Souza: So that becomes, that makes it interesting, right? So there's certain data that is, that is, I would say non permanent, right? But your first car, your date of birth, the city you were born in, this is permanent, it's literally written in stone as far as you're concerned. Now, if that is out there, it just, it's just, people can, like you said, build your whole history and sort of predict what.
Potentially with enough data can predict what you might be able to do so, so they might, and I'm looking at just the, the nefarious side of it, they might be able to say, all right, if we want Marco to act a certain way, this is the kind of inputs we need to feed him. And now we've totally, so they're, they're manipulating you subliminally or they're
very, like a subversive. I'm guessing, I'm guessing, um, advertising agencies and marketing companies do that all the time. But now this is going to a different level. So
that's
[00:12:46] Marco Ciappelli: never, never mind that, which is important, you know, I mean, there's always been the, the will to classify. A specific niche, a target audience.
And I remember one of the thing I used to, when I used to study a lot of branding and advertising, even back in the fifties and the sixties, like, you know, Madison Avenue, the biggest agency in New York. The truth is that they were psychologists. I mean, you, you study the sociology, the psychology of how a certain message can make you react in a certain way.
But. You didn't really know exactly who was going to react. So I remember Henry Ford used to say, I know that half of what I spend in advertising is wasted, but I don't know which half is. Right. You're kind of, you're getting the return, you know, it works, but then with digital marketing, we actually know what is that 50 percent that works.
We even know what is that 10 percent that works. And as you get granular, you said you could technically. Apply that to even more than just selling a product. You can do social engineering online and with ai and now we can bring the, the famous artificial intelligence in the conversation. You can do it even more.
[00:14:09] Carey D'Souza: You can automate the whole thing. Right. I can just feed a bunch of data and say, all right, tell me five things that Mark was going to do next week. And that's going to get, it's going to be faster, easier.
And probably accurate.
And probably, yeah, fairly accurate.
And the accuracy just is going to, so, so then do we then decide and say, you know, yeah, maybe, maybe the other form of security or the form of privacy If, if every you show everything to everyone, there's nothing more to see. People lose interest and, or people like the, the no one person can have an advantage over you.
It, it, it's just, it's a done in cybersecurity. If people know exactly what's going on, then they know you want to do things in the open so everybody knows what's going on. So anything outside of that is seen as an anomaly. So is that the world we are going into where
everything is out in the open. And so once it's out in the open, there is no unfair advantage that somebody can take over you. But
[00:15:07] Marco Ciappelli: it's a big question. Where do,
[00:15:09] Carey D'Souza: where do governments come into this? We already seen that in China. Basically now they're saying that, Hey, if you're a bad citizen, there are certain perks that's taken away from you.
And so are we, are we heading to a dystopian 1984 situation? I mean, we probably in some
[00:15:26] Marco Ciappelli: black mirror. Black Mirror episode.
[00:15:31] Carey D'Souza: Yeah, that was crazy, wasn't it? Like where the guy had to come and replay the last. 24 hours or 48 hours and now the everything. So is that the society we are heading towards and more importantly, is that what we want?
[00:15:45] Marco Ciappelli: And also another, another thing is, do we have a choice? Because that's, that's the other thing
[00:15:50] Carey D'Souza: I was gonna say.
I'm assuming at this point, um, there's literally no choice. I mean, if you are using a cell phone, which a majority of the population on the planet is, and if you're you, you forget cell phones.
If you're using credit cards anywhere. Even if you take yourself off internet and you take, decide you're not, you're going to still use the landline. Most societies are sort of moving towards a cashless society. So, and using credit card, I mean, I think they, they have more data than anybody else. So, so we do, do we then, instead of trying to worry about privacy and cookies and stuff like that, figure out, okay, this is already out there.
How do we live with it? And how do we, how do we move forward from here in such a way that. Um, that somebody who has access to personal data about someone else cannot take advantage of them or cannot without their consent, but it's consent coming to this. That's an interesting one. Where does the consent coming to this?
[00:16:51] Marco Ciappelli: Okay, I'm going to give I'm going to bring something up here. That is even before the Internet when you go to and there was a special not too long ago on NPR. So you do the fight fidelity card. From, uh, a big store, let's say a store that you go every day, let's say, you know, a, a big chain
[00:17:16] Carey D'Souza: like a loyalty card.
Yeah.
[00:17:17] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Yeah. A loyalty card. So you go there every other day, you buy your food, you buy your medicine, you buy whatever they sell in that store, and then you get the fat discount. And they know who you are, you know, you leave, you know, you're using discount coupons and you know, they, they bribed you with that.
But the one thing that they were explaining is that when they get the data on you, even if you think they do it to give you a better service to you, the truth is that they're selling their data to third parties for a lot of money. So your data is out there. They may say it's. Encrypted or anonymized or whatever you want, but we know we can always reconnect things and in that case It wasn't really anonymized because then you will get Something in the in the mail to promote a service.
They're like, how do they know that I like this stuff? Well, I guess what? The point is that you did not know that your data that you gave to your favorite store It was going to be then resold, resold, resold, and resold till the guy, you know, or the girl do the telemarketing call to you because they know how to get you.
So I'm going back again in once upon a time before the internet, there was already a reality like this, but maybe it was so much smaller.
[00:18:48] Carey D'Souza: Always worked, right? That's how marketing is. I mean, that's how people kind of understood trends and stuff like that. Um,
[00:18:56] Marco Ciappelli: but here's a question for you. But if you knew by you, I mean, anyone that that data to get that discount was going to be resold and resold and resold with your name attached to it and your address, your phone number, which, by the way, back in the day, you can just open a phone book and find your number.
So. Where's the privacy there, right? My point is, would you still be okay with that because they give you a discount? Like you feel you're compensated with a value when you give something away.
[00:19:31] Carey D'Souza: We all like that. We all like them. And it's the whole, why would I pay full price for this? If, if giving you a bit of my data, which you're going to get anyways.
[00:19:42] Marco Ciappelli: But what if you could say no, you don't get this and I pay the full price Then who do I take advantage of the people that need the discount in order to buy? Do we have a digital divide? Do we have a I don't know?
[00:19:59] Carey D'Souza: I think the number of people even the most staunch Privacy advocates they all love loyalty points.
They all love it's just depending on well I was reading this book called anthony bourdain's. Um, It's um Um, it's, it's a, it's a audiobook is beautifully narrated. I forget the name. Uh, it's not called low reservation. It is, um, a . I have to, but he, he mentioned it. He's like, he's like, you know, in the end we all have a price.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. You might not want, you might not want to discount from Target, but let's say you. Go to Best Buy and you want to buy an expensive rest, uh, refrigerator or appliance and they're a 10 percent on a 15, 000 refrigerator is quite a lot. Then you're like, yeah, you know what? Great. So I think the way I look at it.
I think privacy has a price and we all have a price at which point we don't care about privacy.
[00:21:01] Marco Ciappelli: Weakness of the human mind.
[00:21:06] Carey D'Souza: But that's been going on over, it's, it's not new as you mentioned, it's going on. From beyond, from before where currency was used and I think the whole, but from the barter days, I'm like people had, people knew who wanted, we, we sort of called it different.
And so that's the other thing that concierge service, when I go to a restaurant and there's a couple of restaurants I frequent, they know exactly what I want and they ask me the usual, love it. I love the fact that I'm there and then I don't, and so the, but that's, yeah, but, but that's data too, right?
That's data being used and, but now it's being used to where I benefit from it, so I don't care.
[00:21:52] Marco Ciappelli: A and where it's still contain, right? I mean, it's still a, the at a manageable size, right? I mean, you, you live a small town and you do want to go to. You know, uh, to the place where you know your name. You, yeah, you, you want to go where everybody knows your name and like that famous
[00:22:15] Carey D'Souza: restaurant have done that well.
Um, they, they, they will even, I think we went to, um, we went to a vacation somewhere. And from the time we were checking in at the, at the reception, by the time we left the reception or the front desk and checked into a room, um, everybody sort of knew our names and where, where we are dining. So it, and over the three days we stayed there by the end of second day, I think our preferences were known by the staff, which is, which felt great.
But like you said, it's very contained. Once we leave. Potentially that data goes away.
[00:22:54] Marco Ciappelli: Maybe you come back the year after and they do have a little bit of a note on you. I mean, I guess a good concierge will do that. And so you come back and you're like, Oh, welcome back, Mr. Sousa. So how is that different then?
Yeah, but, but bring it to the next level where everybody could know what is your favorite restaurant because you just went into Yelp and left five stars and said You know, this is great. This is my favorite my favorite dish and now you're not telling it to the to the hotel You're not telling him to the restaurant It is there forever
[00:23:37] Carey D'Souza: So, so the question is, is that being used?
I mean, Yelp is a great example. I mean, Yelp has been around for like, what, 12 years, 13 years? When, and then we've been, that was before Facebook or around Facebook and um, yeah, there was four Square before that. So we were putting stuff
[00:23:54] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Out there. And Chip advisor, now that you really know where everybody's been going, build your map here.
Yeah, Airbnb, now they know how much you spend, how much you can afford, where have you been? And, and given Airbnb. Airbnb, it's probably not public, but Squarespace, I mean, sort of.
[00:24:15] Carey D'Souza: Yeah, it's sort of, but yeah. Um, so given, given all of this stuff, Even you and I, who are sort of a little bit old school, is, is privacy or the, the, the, the whole privacy or privacy advocates, are they, are they just basically, um, chasing something that does not exist, a ghost chase, or is it, or is it time for us to take a step back and redefine privacy and say, privacy, 50 years ago, it was completely different than what privacy is now and privacy, maybe, Even 20 years from now, it'll be absolutely different than even the kids today.
So we're getting to a point where there'll be driverless cars and you'll be calling, you'll never have to drive. So there you go. I mean, now, now everything people know exactly what time you wake up and leave for office and where you go and all of that stuff. So, um, is it time for us to take a step back and say, you know, instead of fighting this whole, don't share my stuff, a better way would be share my stuff.
But let me know where you're sharing it. And is that, is that a better way of like, tell me where you're, who you're sharing it with and how they're going to use it. And, and I'm still not going to stop you, but at least I know this is happening because it
[00:25:43] Marco Ciappelli: is, I was talking about web three. A while back on this idea that I don't know if it's ever going to happen, but one of the idea about web three was about the fact that you have all the information encrypted, you carry it with you, and it's kind of like when you want to display your your health record to another doctor, you can say, Okay, here's my code.
I'm sharing with you one time. I'm deciding and then I'm going to take it. I'm going to close it back. And so this idea. Yeah. Yeah, go for it. Oh,
[00:26:20] Carey D'Souza: sorry, I am past my company. That's one of the things we do. Control document access. So I can send you access to my document and I can say, all right, 20 minutes.
You've gone through this. I'm revoking it and you have no control over it. We don't even need to do web 3. So for me,
[00:26:38] Marco Ciappelli: So for me, this conversation, it is about a new definition of privacy, although I think it's privacy is different, different culture, they have different approach of privacy. I mean, we know in Europe, it's a little bit more than in the US, but in the US, it can come into my garden, even if there is no fence, because if I shoot you, I'm actually.
Right, because it's my private property, you know, but privacy means different thing in different culture. But I think at the bottom line of our conversation, it seems to me that it is about me willing to share it with you or not. And if you're... Taking this information of my consent without my authorization that you're infringing my privacy.
But if I tell you my secret, I'm the one that is doing it. But you, you shouldn't give my secret to someone else or say, Hey, Kerry, I have a, you know, can you keep a secret? Don't tell it to... The other friends, right? When we were a kid we used to do that and then you knew there was somebody that somehow was Someone else and then the secret was out So this idea of managing the access the web 3.
0 or what you're doing now with your new company That's that's what I think we should go into nowadays is I can take it back and I can give it
[00:28:05] Carey D'Souza: So, how do you prevent something? So i'm Public platforms like privately owned companies who've got public platforms like Instagram or LinkedIn or Facebook or X Where you're willingly storing and where they basically tell you like, hey if you're on the platform The data is public.
How do we so do we do we do people then need to Tell people or do we need a new platform that then allows, that allows you to give consent, and then if you do that, then how is that different from back in the day? The whole point of having a social media platform is that you are reaching people you don't know or may never know, but they get to see what you posted.
So,
[00:28:48] Marco Ciappelli: but you're the one that decide to post that, so then he's on you.
[00:28:55] Carey D'Souza: How do we prevent it? But wait,
[00:28:58] Marco Ciappelli: you need, you need to tell people, look,
[00:29:01] Carey D'Souza: you can't, it's like taking the toothpaste once, once you squeeze the toothpaste out of the tube,
[00:29:07] Marco Ciappelli: I know, but maybe you need an alert. Maybe you need an alert that says, Hey, before you post this picture of being drunk or in public or being stupid or having fun.
Remember. This is forever
[00:29:24] Carey D'Souza: an important, important bit. I think people already know that. It's like putting. warning labels on cigarette packets. I mean, uh, while it's, it's, it's, people who smoke still look at it and nobody reads it, right? So the alerts are going to have similar, people are going to get desensitized to the alerts, but, but the alert bit, I think the other could bit could be, I mean, this could be an interesting concept where if I share something on Instagram and it's out there.
It potentially can alert me if somebody else is reposting it or sharing it. That could be potentially, uh, I'm not even sure if it's possible. I don't know the implications of that. But that's where maybe some level of consent can come in, if at all.
[00:30:08] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, but I mean, look, it's why I remember the time when we were developing website that you will put a, you could stop a photo from being downloaded, right?
And then, and then you're like, look, it's a joke because everybody can take a screenshot. If it's on the internet. Is there it's kind of like when a celebrity posts something bad and then they take it down Somebody already screenshot
[00:30:37] Carey D'Souza: that People have got screenshotting apps running in the background.
They just screenshot. I mean you can bookmark it or you can watermark it Um, which takes away the integrity of the image, and there are programs that will remove watermark. I mean, AI, there's AI, um, applications out there that will remove watermark easily. So, so the question here is then, maybe it's a time, it's, it's a good time to take a good hard look at what is privacy.
It's definitely not accept cookies or select cookies, because that's, that's absolute utter nonsense, I, I think. It's absolute rubbish. It's not doing anything. Uh, nobody's benefiting from that. It's just another additional layer of cost. It's like a, it's like a Band Aid on a deep cut, which needs stitches and then you're just putting it back.
So, so maybe stop, stop all of that. And, and. Take it away.
[00:31:34] Marco Ciappelli: So how? Look, when you have reading, when Apple or Facebook or any other company send you, we change our policy. Privacy policy. Here, here is your 35 pages written in. Veia is, you know, 12 , are you gonna, are you gonna read it at a certain point? You trust the company or you don't.
Right? Yeah. You trust the company or you don't. Another thing that I do, and this is my personal advice, is I know that if I'm using a free service, I know I'm the, I'm the, uh, I'm, I'm the product. I'm not the customer. If I'm paying for something, then I may be entitled of some sort of different respect or rights.
That's another thing. I feel like people want everything free because we make them believe that Facebook is free, that Twitter is free, and... And all the other social medias. And all the multi billion dollar companies. Exactly, but their IPO and they're worth so much money because they sell advertising. Hmm, wonder how do they do that?
[00:32:47] Carey D'Souza: Yeah, how do they make some money? Um, yeah, I don't know Marco, I think it's time to take a good hard look at privacy. And maybe a lot of the privacy nonsense is also also The legality of it, right? I mean, a lot of people, a lot of law firms just making it everybody half, half the terms and conditions. If you look at it, mean nothing except to protect the, the company whose platform using is protect them.
Um, like in case this gets leaked or somebody else uses it just so that, you know, the whole.
You've indemnified us from any future lawsuits and stuff like that. And there's the, that's the legal side of stuff. It's also a big variable in that. Like that, that, that, that's a big one too. And in this country, unfortunately, anyone can sue anyone.
[00:33:40] Marco Ciappelli: So that makes it even more tricky. And that, sorry, my dog.
And then there are the thing too, is like,
[00:33:46] Carey D'Souza: I can send you pet products.
[00:33:49] Marco Ciappelli: Exactly. Well, I have one on my profile too, on, on online. So everybody knows that, but I think the problem is also that it's all over the places. So you mentioned that, like how many times are you going to say no to the cookies when you know, you've been on that website and then you come back and they ask you again, but you're already opting by default and you have to opt out.
First of all, I think you should always be opt out by default and you. Actually, so regulation is important, but then as a European citizen, let's say you are not in Europe, then you're, you're not subject to the cookie GDPR regulation. But as an American, if you are in Europe, then you are dealing with all the GDPR regulation.
So it's, it's, it's the internet. It's everywhere. It's how do you put boundaries on it?
[00:34:46] Carey D'Souza: I think the way I look at it, I think, and there's no way, you can anonymize the data, you can encrypt the data, you can do whatever the heck you want. There's enough data out there. If somebody wants to build a profile of you and decide, um, they, they want to build a persona and, and sell you stuff or do stuff, which, uh, allows them to tailor stuff for you.
I think that's enough data out there. I think the, the thing is that. If you don't want people to know about stuff, don't post it online. I think that's the only thing I can say. Like, be careful, be careful about, um, about you, what you post about your kids. Let them make the decisions and it's like, don't, don't make the decisions from them.
Don't like birthday parties and stuff. Great to share with relatives. So on there, but why does it need to be on, on Instagram or Facebook or. X, where everybody in there, our Snapchat, where everybody and their aunt can look at it. Why do you care? Do you really have a thousand friends who care? Nobody gives a rat's arse about, about your kid's birthday or what you did.
Unless you're a travel writer and you're going all the places and they want to know your stuff. But otherwise like most, most people. Yeah, celebrities, uh, classic examples, all the celebrities who've got millions of followers and they use it to do what? Basically, they get paid, they use their follower, they, they, they are the advertising.
Now they, instead of advertising banners, now you've got celebrities wearing these things and influencing people. So,
[00:36:14] Marco Ciappelli: and often they're paid a lot of money to do that, but you know, me as a normal individual, we just. You know, it makes me think like that 15 minutes of fame by Andy Warhol back in the 70s when he said that.
Um, now you get the fame when you don't want it.
[00:36:36] Carey D'Souza: What you're proud of today could be something you're not really proud of, maybe five. Years from now, who knows? I mean, there are a lot of things that we do on the spot at the moment, and you post it, and then we think it's great, people are liking it, and hearts and stuff, but three years down the line, you might be in a life situation where that data should not be public.
So that's something.
[00:36:59] Marco Ciappelli: I personally think it may cost you a job. It may cost you a political career.
[00:37:06] Carey D'Souza: Yeah, make your insurance premiums higher. Like, for example, we raced as motorcycles and crashed a bunch of bikes and you're proud of it. I crashed and I survived. But guess what? Three years later you go to buy a new bike and they're like, your insurance is going to be like five times the cost because you know what, you've been crashing bikes and posting stuff.
So it's, it's, you've got to be careful about what you post out there knowing that privacy as we know, that's my thing, I think privacy as we know is gone. The cookie stuff and the GDPR is all absolute rubbish. It does not protect you. It only protects the companies that, that they just don't want to be sued.
Um, just be more diligent about what you post out there and understand that it's not today. Understand the consequences of your, of your data in the future. Um, once upon a time tomorrow, that's a, it's a classic. That, that's a, it's a great, this, this is great. Think about the future.
[00:38:07] Marco Ciappelli: I agree. And I think to close here, it's, it's exactly very, very similar to our first episode where we said, you can fight as much as you want, but the train of the, you know, that case was generative AI has left the station.
We talk about movies. So if you get the opportunity, just go back on the first episode and listen to it. But we ended up saying it's here to stay. We, we cannot. Shut the door and roll back. Yeah, we, we need to learn how to deal with it. And I think the best way to learn how to deal with it is to be conscious that it exists, even in our case, and really think about what we do and adapt to it.
Like we've always done. That's a good thing about being human. We're pretty good at adapting. But, you know, we need to think about stuff a little bit, a little bit more. So I think that's the lesson today, Gary.
[00:39:01] Carey D'Souza: It is. Privacy, as you know, has changed. Your data is out there. Stop paying attention to GDPR and privacy policies and stuff like that.
Understand, take a little bit of responsibility for your own data. And know that it's out there and perhaps learn how to use it. Yeah, learn how to use it versus trying to fight it.
[00:39:23] Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, I think it's worth it. It's worth to, to, to, you know, to open the hood and look at the engine once in a while, like new social media, you're about to subscribe to the new, the new gadget that is connected to the internet, like know where that information go.
And then you can make your decision if you don't care. You don't care. At least, you know, consciously.
[00:39:48] Carey D'Souza: Why do you, why are you posting that? And that's a great question to ask. I think that's what I would leave people before you post anything or anything publicly, ask what's the motivation for you to post it?
Is it just to get a few likes and hearts or is it really meaningful to somebody else? And, and then the other question to ask is, okay, a year from now, would you still be happy that this data is out there that can be used? Because after the first 30 seconds. You're the people who are giving you likes no longer care.
They're never going back to it, but that data is there permanently. And is that something you're okay with? So the why becomes important. Like, why am I posting this? Or why does this need to go up?
[00:40:30] Marco Ciappelli: Why do I need to be on that on that social media? Do I need to be in every possible social media? Existing there just because it's there.
It's uh, you know, it's a little bit too much and it's a lot of Pressure, I can see a kid being like, you know, social pressure we're all doing something and you need to do it too otherwise, you're going to be the awkward in the group and I think you should be able to do whatever you you want to do but use your brain and use your judgment Not because everybody does it, you need to do it as well.
So that's the lesson. Carey, thank you for your time. We ended up doing a good 40 minutes and, uh, and maybe next time we'll talk about music and AI as we were planning. And we'll figure out where we're going to do a little open source, uh, investigation here and figure out. Let's do a month
[00:41:23] Carey D'Souza: of assembly. See what they've been up to.
[00:41:28] Marco Ciappelli: You better have a good excuse.
[00:41:30] Carey D'Souza: They better have a good excuse. Especially if, uh, if Sean's posting pictures from London and he's telling me that he's sick. I'm not sure about that.
[00:41:40] Marco Ciappelli: We'll figure it out. Alright everybody, thank you so much. There'll be notes, probably an excuse to write something for my newsletter.
In thinking about how privacy has changed with technology. So stay tuned and Kerry next time you you'll find all that The the way to connect with Kerry on on our notes if he wants to share it because you know, maybe private
[00:42:04] Carey D'Souza: If if I'm if it's out there in the public if i've shared some stuff it is it is for public consumption
[00:42:10] Marco Ciappelli: all right. Bye everybody Thank you for listening and watching if you're watching and i'll catch up next time