Joined by Jon Von Tetzchner, the technologist and founder of the Opera Browser and the Vivaldi Browser, they explore the fascinating history of browsers, from the early days of the web to the present.
Guest: ✨ Jon von Tetzchner, Creator of Opera Bowser [@opera] and Vivaldi Browser [@vivaldibrowser]
On LinkedIn | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jonv1/
On Twitter | https://twitter.com/jonsvt
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Host: Marco Ciappelli, Co-Founder at ITSPmagazine [@ITSPmagazine] and Host of Redefining Society Podcast
On ITSPmagazine | https://www.itspmagazine.com/itspmagazine-podcast-radio-hosts/marco-ciappelli
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Episode Introduction
On this episode of the Redefining Society Podcast, host Marco Ciappelli dives into the ever-changing landscape of the internet and the impact of tracking and profiling on our online experience. Joined by Jon Von Tetzchner, the technologist and founder of the Opera Browser and the Vivaldi Browser, they explore the fascinating history of browsers, from the early days of the web to the present.
Jon shares his insights on the motivation behind creating the Opera Browser and how it led to the development of the Vivaldi Browser. They discuss the influence of music in Jon's life and its connection to the names of the browsers. As they delve into Jon's journey in technology, he reveals his early involvement in the web and how it led to the creation of the first Opera Browser in 1994.
Marco and Jon also discuss the current significance of browsers in our online activities. Despite the rise of apps and social media, browsers remain a crucial interface for accessing and navigating the web. The conversation then shifts to the crucial topic of online privacy and profiling. Jon emphasizes the importance of protecting user data and discusses the need for regulations to address the issue of indiscriminate data collection.
In their discussion on artificial intelligence, Marco and Jon explore its potential benefits and pitfalls. They touch upon the accessibility improvements brought by AI, such as enhanced translations, but also express caution about the misuse of AI in areas like spam and the generation of inaccurate information. They both stress the need for ethical and responsible implementation of AI.
Finally, Marco and Jon address the ongoing battle between convenience and security in the digital realm. They delve into the complex relationship between data collection and personalized experiences, highlighting the importance of giving users control over their data and ensuring reasonable use by companies.
Join Marco Ciappelli and Jon Von Tetzchner in this enlightening conversation as they redefine the role of browsers, explore the challenges of online privacy, and delve into the evolving landscape of artificial intelligence.
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Resources
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Browsing the Internet: Past, Present, and Future Of Online Privacy And Profiling with Jon Von Tetzchner, Creator of the Opera And Vivaldi Browsers | Redefining Society with Marco Ciappelli
Please note that this transcript was created using AI technology and may contain inaccuracies or deviations from the original audio file. The transcript is provided for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon as a substitute for the original recording, as errors may exist. At this time, we provide it “as it is,” and we hope it can be helpful for our audience.
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Marco Ciappelli: [00:00:00] Hello, everybody. This is Marco Ciappelli. Welcome to another episode of Redefining Society podcast. It's a never ending story. Every time I think I got it down and I redefine it. I have to start all over again just because technology keeps changing and I don't think It's ever changed this fast, especially in the past few years with The famous or infamous artificial intelligence taking place in everything that we do And I don't know if we're gonna touch on that today, but I have a feeling We may end up talking a little bit about that too.
It is a post CES conversation. Um, I didn't make it there this year and I could have met my guests on on the floor in Las Vegas, but I like I said, I wasn't there and I'm excited to have him here. His name is John Ted Snare. I hope I pronounce it correctly. He's a [00:01:00] technologist, the founder of the Opera Browser, if I am correct, and now working on the Vivaldi one.
So I see a love for music here. Maybe we'll go into that, but I'm excited for this conversation. John, thank you for stopping by to the show.
Jon Von Tetzchner: Thank you, Marco. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you. Very
Marco Ciappelli: good, very good. So do we want to start with this opera, Vivaldi? Is there any motif here, like a line?
Jon Von Tetzchner: I mean, there is a tie there, but I mean, it kind of started with opera and my co founder at the time at opera, he came up with a name.
And I think we were going for something short and yes, a little bit musical and we kind of liked it. There is music in my family. Um, my great grandfather was a composer and my grandmother was a composer. Uh, but I can't say that that's where [00:02:00] the name is coming from. But, but I've kind of kept the names inside the same group.
That's there's truth to that.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. And you choose actually Vivaldi. It's one of my favorite. Yeah, it's I call him the rock star of the Baroque because it's a it's style of doing music. But that's a conversation for another for another day. So tell me a little bit about yourself, how you got involved in technology and specifically in developing browsers that from what I understand, and I actually believe it or not, I'm using Opera right now as we're recording this for privacy and personalization and what what motivated it.
to go that
Jon Von Tetzchner: way. I mean, um, I started working with the web back in 1992. Uh, and this is so early that, uh, kind of the web almost didn't exist. So I was working at the research lab for the [00:03:00] Norwegian Telecom. I was also doing my studies, actually, as I was doing a master's degree at the time. And we came across the web and we set up, uh, kind of the entry point to Norway that would list the other servers that were there.
Uh, I worked on a kind of a site which was kind of like an intranet before the term existed. Um, and then we would kind of playing with all the things and, and then we decided to make the browser and this is still inside the, uh, the telecom. So the research department, part of what we did was looking at, uh, we were looking at interesting technologies.
And again, we came across the web. We thought this was interesting. We started to make the browser after a lot of discussion. Um, And then there was a discussion what to do with it. And, uh, we negotiated a deal where we took it out of the telecom company because they had no interest in taking it forward.
So we just caught the rights and we founded [00:04:00] Opera. So that's, that's kind of when I, uh, how I started with browsers. And I mean, I started coding the Opera browser in 94. Uh, and we founded the company in 95
Marco Ciappelli: and back in the days. I am dating myself too, but I remember starting to go on the Internet. It was the time of mosaic and Netscape and and excitement was was very, very strong to have a visual.
Graphic interface that you can then surf the surf at the time, you know, the web, the worldwide web, and I know it's going to be a long story if I ask you to tell me the story of, of the browsers, but I'm more interested maybe into where are we standing? With the browser, it's still the necessary interface to do the things that we do online.
I know people a few years ago, they were like, everything is going to happen in the apps, in [00:05:00] the social media. But guess what? Browsers are still here and it seems to me they're going strong. What's, uh, what's the status?
Jon Von Tetzchner: I think that that's continuing, by the way. And the first time I heard that is, is, is with Pointcast.
I don't know if that's 97 or something like that, where there was this idea that we didn't need any browsers anymore. And we were just going to watch our screens and, and, and see things move. And, and, and like certain things have happened in that direction, but I think a lot of people, they want to be able to control and select the material that they want to see and not just be fed by some algorithm.
So I think we, we continue to use the browser and, and, and if anything, I mean, it continues to increase. I mean, it's a very important part of people's lives and people spend a lot of time online and most of that is spent in the browser.
Marco Ciappelli: What's the, what's the situation? And I just had a conversation before this one.
And, uh, we ended up [00:06:00] talking about blockchain, about web. 3. 0 and nice things about privacy, about, you know, carrying our own, uh, records with us, touch on GDPR, touch on, um, individual experience and how to protect our individuality and our You know, who we are, right? And not even be impersonated by, especially now with AI, the role of the browser, the browser in this, um, it's, is it a kind of shield?
It's, it's, it's safe nowadays. It can be integrated with blockchain. Where are we standing there?
Jon Von Tetzchner: Well, obviously my take on blockchain and Web3 is that it has nothing to do with the web and it's basically just a scam.
Marco Ciappelli: Okay, good to know. I like, yeah, let's talk about that.
Jon Von Tetzchner: So, I mean, it's all related to crypto and I mean, crypto is not a solution to any problem.
It's [00:07:00] a problem in itself. I've written a blog about it and I mean, a lot of people have reacted positively to that because I think In the industry, a lot of people are thinking the same thing. They're thinking, okay, you shouldn't be able to just go and print your own money and things like that. So, uh, I think there's generally a consensus that, uh, among the people that are in the tech industry, that this is not a good thing and we should not be doing this.
And, and so that's, that's where I'm coming from. And with blockchain as a technology, uh, my feeling has always been, it's, it's a technology looking for a problem to solve, but typically most of the solutions that come. Uh, they include some kind of crypto and so it's, it's, it's, it's another get rich kind of quick scheme.
And I've had discussions with so many people on this, including friends that wanted to get me involved and, and they're like, and it's, I'm [00:08:00] saddened that smart people are utilizing their brain power on something like that. Uh, so. I don't like it. I don't like the term Web3. Now, Web3 has been talked about for a really long time, but, and if you don't trust me, ask Tim Berners Lee what he thinks of Web3.
I think you'll find that his, uh, he's, he's in agreement with me. He's probably more polite in his kind of, in the words that he would use, but there's an agreement. It has nothing to do with a web. There are issues with the web, but nothing that Web3 can resolve, right? Web3 is basically, okay, let's take something people know, let's come with a version 3 of it, and say that, kind of, okay, we're coming with something new and wonderful, and you want to use that, and if you don't know what it is, it's because you're stupid.
Which is kind of the main argument which comes with crypto. So, not a fan. I mean [00:09:00] I want to see the web move forward, and I've been working with kind of a distributed web, but in a different way. I mean, we started working with that at Opera back in 2005. We were thinking about the Internet of Things, and I think that's interesting how you do that in a standardized manner.
We came up with suggestions on that that we launched in 2010, and so there are things around that, but I don't really see. Blockchain or Web3 or anything as being any, any part of that. We do have a problem on the internet and that's the idea that you can, all you, any user can be profiled. I think that should actually just not be allowed.
Uh, and, and we've tried to kind of push that as well. Uh, you can look at our, we made a website with the Icelandic consumer association. Um, and you can find it at [00:10:00] bandspine. org. There's a cut video trying to explain all of this to you. Um, well, basically the, the, the concept of gathering information and how much information is being gathered on us.
And I think that's a problem. And, and, I mean, as long as you're on the web. It gets to be really hard to avoid being, uh, kind of getting into a profile. Now we try to do things on our side in the browser. We are not collecting information ourselves. I think that's maybe one of the most important things is not to be collecting information ourselves and not.
Building profiles because we think it's wrong to do so. But at the same time, we also provide things like tracker blocking and ad blocking in the browser as well. But the first step needs to be there, which is, okay, you're not collecting information yourself. So those are the kinds of things that I think is, is important.
I mean, for me, I've spent basically whole, my whole working life on the web. I mean, I, I came straight out of the school, [00:11:00] started working on the browser. More or less straight away, uh, and I mean, I've dedicated my life to getting people online first with Opera and then with Vivaldi and the idea that, okay, I'm getting everyone online and helping them get a great user experience online.
And then they're being profiled and then that information is being used to influence people in bad ways. Dividers make us hate each other, uh, which is part of what's created through the algorithms that are in use at Facebook and the like, but also the advertisement. So those are kind of the kind of things that we are thinking about.
And, and, and again, what we are trying to do is to build the best possible browser and, and, uh, trying to keep people safe. But at the same time, we have to realize that, uh, there are problems on the internet and some of those problems are best solved through regulation.
Marco Ciappelli: Good point, good point. It's the never ending battle between convenience and [00:12:00] security, right?
I want company to know enough about me, maybe, and I say me in general, so that they can suggest me the product that I want, the movie that I am interested in, they know the book that I may read after this book, but at the same time, uh, the privacy. It's something that you want. So how do you disclose enough?
And, and get the benefit of that versus being able to take that back if you need it, because I think when it's out of the, when the paste is out of the tube, you can't put it back in. And then I'm afraid that's, that's where we are.
Jon Von Tetzchner: Well, I mean, I have a different view of that actually, because I really think that sometimes, and we've done that before, when we found that we've generated bad technology, we can turn it around.
We did it with asbestos and we can do it with, uh, with the collection of information and profiling. I mean, I think, realistically speaking, there's going to be plenty [00:13:00] of data, uh, out there. Uh, so it's not really always a question of taking the data away. It's a question of what you can use it for, right?
Right, right. So if I'm driving around, actually having traffic information, uh, is useful, right? So, okay, that's the reasonable use of the data, but it isn't. It doesn't mean that my personal driving habits, uh, and can be then scrutinized for marketing purposes. I don't think there's an automatic tie between those two.
So it's a question of, okay, there's reasonable use of the data and there's unreasonable. Use of the data. And I think we could get rid of all the GDPR kind of dialogue boxes asking you, because I think it should just be a question of reasonable use and unreasonable use. And, and I mean, I think in most cases, again, when there's a question of.
Users making the decisions, they don't have the knowledge to make that [00:14:00] decision, and I think quite often they are not in, I mean, they don't really have a choice. It's kind of like, oh, you want this shiny thing or do you don't even if you want this shiny thing, then you have to give up all your information.
And I think that's an unreasonable trade. And I think it's, it's, it's kind of, you can just set the rules of what's reasonable to do. And, and I mean, it will change maybe the business model for some, some companies, but I think that's a reasonable thing to me. There's this narrative, there's this story that is being told that the web is built on this, and that's not the truth.
The last 10 years, a lot of kind of misuse of data has been there. But before that, you didn't really have personalized ads. You had Contextual ads. And I think contextual ads are much more acceptable to the public. It's basically what you're used to from, [00:15:00] you're watching a tech, you go into a tech site, you'll see tech ads.
You go into a fashion site, you'll see fashion ads. I think it's a fairly reasonable model that's worked for the longest time. Instead, the ads are following you based on your profile. And I think that's a lot of what people are reacting to. There's also the privacy things and kind of what's reasonable to gather.
But, and I think, I mean, that should be part of this is you can, you can collect reasonable amounts of data. You can keep reasonable amounts of data. Uh, and then you. Delete it and, and, and, and kind of there's rules of regulations. In some cases, you as a company will have massive amounts of data on your customers.
Maybe you're keeping their email. The idea that someone would scan through your email for marketing purposes, which I mean, again, Google has been doing with Gmail and the like is so unreasonable. It's crazy. Uh, you don't [00:16:00] expect your telecommunication company to listen to your calls. You don't expect someone painting your house to be making an inventory of your furniture.
So, why would it be reasonable that anything else that you're doing should be collected? So, I think, I mean, it needs to be. Regulate it. And I think it will have an impact because to me, it's kind of like, okay, if you and me, let's say we are, we are technical enough and we turn on enough of the kind of tracker blocking and things like that to keep ourselves from being tracked as much as the rest of the population.
Uh, then it's kind of like, to me, it's like being in a zombie movie. We are part of the people that are locked into the supermarket and everyone else is outside being a zombie. I think that's a problem. We want to keep everyone safe. We want to help the people that are less technical and we want to help.
People, it shouldn't just be that [00:17:00] because the data is there that you can take it and use it for whatever. And again, the fact that you have the data doesn't give you the right to use it for other purposes. And I think that's, that's something, I mean, I, again, I've been there from the beginning. The idea that you have certain things gives, doesn't give you the right to use it for other things.
The fact that you have data on your customers, you can't give it to someone else. The problem now is, I mean, you may say you visit a site, there's no real problem in them having information about what you looked at that site, right? As long as it's a small site. The problem is when that and every other site that you visit is then used and put into a big profile.
That's where it kind of gets ugly. Small information is maybe not so much of an issue. Again, it's a question of how you're using it and how you're doing the profiling. But if the main point is that, okay, you visited a shop and next time you visit that shop. [00:18:00] They know that they would like to show you the thing that you were looking at last time.
That's probably not a problem, but that following you everywhere else that you go, on every site that you've been, that just because you looked at a computer or something else that you'll see that computer. For the next two weeks, everywhere you go, I mean, not only is it ineffective, um, but I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of unreasonable, which is why I think so many people are finding that they want to have ad blockers and
Marco Ciappelli: it's going to While you're describing all of this, I mean, I, I've been thinking about this and I think it's all connected to The model of free, the freemium, where Facebook or Gmail, yeah, we're going to give it to you for free, but really not free.
It's not free at all. You're paying for your information, but it's done in a non clear way. There is not really an [00:19:00] exchange, an agreement, a contract in between to say, okay, you can use these It's not really free. You're paying with that. And, and I think it started the entire following everywhere, the entire, you know, the cookie crumbles that follow you all over the places.
So yes, regulation, I think it's important, but also, I don't know, education for the
Jon Von Tetzchner: user. I don't think it's reasonable, uh, to, to, it's, people have a lot of things to do. They have all the things on their mind. Most people are not that interested in this and they don't want to have to deal with it. They just expect society to work in a reasonable manner.
I mean, we didn't have to tell the painters that they didn't have to, they couldn't collect information about what we had in our house. I think you're just expecting also that, okay, your calls that you're having. Normally they will [00:20:00] not be transcoded. They will not, no one will be listening to your calls. I mean, unless there's a particular reason to.
Marco Ciappelli: Right. Unless, uh, police have a serious reason and
Jon Von Tetzchner: ask for permits. Bas basically, I mean, and I mean, I, I think this is, I remember there was a, there was a. Discussion in Norway. There actually, there was an interview or he was doing a talk, the spy chief in Norway, and he was just saying that he was saying, okay, you're concerned about what we are collecting your data.
What you should be collecting is what the big private companies are doing, because they're collecting a lot more than we are. And the point is when the big private companies, when big tech is collecting information and making it available for the highest bidder, I mean, they're not. necessarily selling your data per se, they're just selling access to you based on that data.
And for that, as a society, then they end up becoming a programming machine for us. And I just don't think that's reasonable. [00:21:00] And the idea that just because, I mean, again, they've chosen a business model where they're giving things away for free, which has been the mantra for the internet from the very beginning.
But I don't think it's reasonable that, okay, they go free to kill the competition, and then they want to basically not provide us with, uh, kind of, again, then the deal is, okay, once you have us, then you can do with our data, whatever you want. I mean, there were, I worked at an event and they were talking again about Google maps and the like.
It used to be mapping services, they would cost money. Then Google Maps came in and initially the API access was free and now it's not free anymore. And again, there's, they've killed a lot of the competition, which I don't really think is a good thing. I think it's better if you have a working competition, you can have multiple companies that are trying to compete in the mapping service.
And the same applies to email and the like. I mean, there are some really good [00:22:00] mail companies where you pay a few bucks a year. And then you have kind of, you're not being tracked and they're trying their best to keep you safe. And I would recommend people to look at those services instead of just taking the, the free ones.
But, um, on our hand. Some people may not have a choice and they don't have to have the time and, uh, to, to think about that. And, and, and again, I really then think that there should be rules and regulations to say what you can do and what you can't do. And I don't think there's a way around it. I think the idea that big tech will do the right thing is they're not doing that.
Let's be clear about that. We just seen that they can't. Be trusted to make the right decisions. And, and I think it's really unfortunate because I had, I personally had expected more from them because I don't think they want to create havoc or, or create problems and the like. But I [00:23:00] mean, if you look at the issues with Facebook and their algorithms and the consequences of those, and they're then finding, okay, our algorithm make people hate each other.
Maybe you should change them. Oh, we make less money. And I did a little bit of a survey on Mastodon, asking people what they thought. And I think 90 percent answered that, okay, if I made a protocol and made people hate each other, I would change it. And they haven't. And I think it's. It's kind of, it's, it's, it's a question of doing the right thing.
And I think we should expect more from companies that they should be thinking about the consequences of what they're doing and hopefully then they will make the right decision, uh, but at the same time, some of them won't. So we need regulation.
Marco Ciappelli: I agree. I agree. And then when I mentioned education, I didn't mean that everybody needs to become their own security guard or knowing exactly how to manipulate and [00:24:00] set up their phones, which is impossible.
You're opting by default. You're not opt out, which is another thing that we could talk about. But I would like to pick your brain on what I feel like I have to in these days. Artificial intelligence. I Um, how is affecting the way that you develop your next generation of the browser? Is it, is it making a certain decision easier or is it complicating thing?
Do you see more of a benefit versus a
Jon Von Tetzchner: negative? I mean, here's the point. Do you know how many users have asked us about AI? How many
Marco Ciappelli: users?
Jon Von Tetzchner: We are a very user driven company. Yeah. What do you say? I would
Marco Ciappelli: say, everybody?
Jon Von Tetzchner: Zero. The opposite. Yeah, I mean, it isn't that they're, I mean, obviously, if they want to [00:25:00] use AI, they can go and they can go to any service that they like.
They're not asking for it in the browser. They, they, they, they may be interested. I mean, people may be interested in playing with it, but, and there is good use of AI and there's bad use of AI, right? There's, I think we've seen that. Like everything, right? It's a tool. It's a tool. And we've seen massive improvements in, for example, translations and the like.
And I think that's wonderful. And that's the case where we actually are using AI. We have basically used ready made models to help you with translations, right? So, so we built in a translation feature and we are continuing to improve that. And we are doing that with a third party, but the servers are hosted by us.
And again, we are not using the data in any way. We just build the models and then we use them. So it's, I think it's a good use of data of AI. Uh, it's a good use of AI. And I think there are other ways to do [00:26:00] AI in a good way. And then there's bad ways. I mean, part of what we've been seeing recently is the significant improvement in spam.
It's a lot better written. It's written in localized language. It's, it's a lot more, uh, to the point. And I think a lot of that is, is, is coming from them utilizing new tools that are available to them. And that's really unfortunate. Um, I think the companies that are competing on AI companies like Google and Microsoft and the like, they've proven themselves to not.
Trustworthy when it comes to making decisions when their, when their companies, when they feel that their companies are at risk and the like, right? So they are feeling that this is a game changer in the industry. And I think in a way they're making decisions, which can be unfortunate. I am following also, uh, Uh, how is it going with, uh, with the results?
If you're asking questions and if you're asking the AI machine that is now [00:27:00] supposed to be answering one question with a singular answer, will it give the right answer? And the problem is it won't, uh, it will make something up and it may sound right. Uh, but that's part of the problem and then it will probably be manipulated.
I mean, try asking about why is Microsoft called the evil empire and see if you get an accurate answer to that or tell me about kind of embrace, extend, extinguish. Uh, and you can see that it's kind of, it will tell you Microsoft used to be called this or they did those things, but now they have a new CEO who is walking on water.
And, and I mean, I'm, I'm pretty certain that that wouldn't come up automatically. So it's, it's, it's kind of like there's question marks on this and, and. There isn't always, if you're asking plus what two plus two is, I mean, obviously there's a simple answer [00:28:00] and it should be able to give that answer correctly.
When the answers are more complex, it gets to be more difficult. And will the answers then be, I mean, all the issues that you have with whatever is written about you, is that kind of, or written about anyone else? It's, is that going to be the truth? Is that going to be correct? It's, it's complicated. And, and, and I think.
It's exciting on the one side, it's interesting technology, but it's also the next step in big data and big data so far has been used for a lot of really bad stuff and more collection of data is not what we are needing, uh, and in particular indiscriminate use of that data.
Marco Ciappelli: Yeah, for sure. No, I, I was more interested in, and you kind of mentioned that in the translation, like in creating, uh, the internet more accessible.
Because it may help for people that are impaired for visually impaired. [00:29:00] And so you can read things much more effectively than what, you know, language model or translation model could have done five years ago, 10 years ago. So I can definitely see that. But, um. It's an open, open territory and I, I agree as especially as a European to give much more relevance to privacy and I agree that it's legislation I need to step in because when you make the money and all your decision are based on how much more money you can make every quarter, it's, uh, it's hard to find humanity and, and ethics in those kind of, uh, situations.
Driven forces. So you need to have an objective that
Jon Von Tetzchner: Yeah, you need the regulation. And I think, I mean, also in the U S that's what people want as well. It's just, I think a lot more people here have given up on the idea that, okay, that there will be regulation, that regulation will work, that, uh, [00:30:00] they're kind of that again, the train has gone and there is nothing you can do about it.
And, uh, and if you were to change that, it would have massive impact on these companies. But what I've tried to say is that. In the chains, when there are certain companies that just said, okay, I'll use whatever data I get for whatever I want, because it's all mine, mine, mine. Uh, they, they made those choices.
And through that there were winners and losers, right? If you look at the consequences where we were 10 years ago, with regards to, uh, again, there was most of the press in content on the internet was free at the time, there was very little that had gone behind paywalls. And I think the point of that is that the revenue model were actually working at that time.
It's very logical. If you take, uh, and I mean, you wanted to reach someone, a technical user, you would want to reach them on a technical [00:31:00] site. Now you can reach them anywhere. You just have, as long as he visited that technical site, You can find them anywhere and it's expanding the scope. I mean, in the early days of the internet, you would say, okay, you, you are talking about a high quality placement.
You might be paying a 50 CPM. Right. 50 per thousand views of an ad. Now, if, uh, the ad was being shown kind of in some of these, uh, kind of, uh, ad, uh, kind of systems that were just showing ads wherever there was space, then you would be getting 50 cents. So a hundred to one in cost, because you wanted your ads to be shown in, in, in quality locations.
Now that's changed, and you have an algorithm deciding what's shown where and what, and so the change in the model is significant. And yeah, it's, [00:32:00]
Marco Ciappelli: yeah, no, no, I agree with you. I, I grew up with advertising when advertising wasn't. And all this value on the, on the click and on the tracking, it for me is all making sense.
The old school, like if you have a, an editorials on cars, that's where Mercedes and BMW and the good cars should put their advertisement because not only is where people are interested, but is when. People are interested because I may be a car fan. But if I'm looking at a website that is about, I don't know, travel, maybe I don't want to see the ad for the car.
Maybe you're invading and disturbing me in a moment that I'm not receptive to that kind of ad. So it makes sense to me. And I think again, maybe we've been carried away a little too much by the possibilities of the technology. And just because we can do it, it doesn't mean that we have to do it. And it doesn't mean that it's the right thing to [00:33:00] do.
So, well, a lot of thinking here from what you said, and I love how you've been completely open and straightforward on your opinion. Um, I'm a big fan of, uh, of privacy and a big fan of what you guys are doing. And I think that what you say, just pay a little bit if you can for a service. That is actually going to take care of you, then get something for free.
And then you end up paying way much more than that. So, well, uh, John, thank you for stopping by. It's been an honor to have this conversation with you. I hope, uh, you can join me back, uh, some other times in the future and good luck with everything you've done. And hopefully I'll get to meet you in person on the next, uh, event somewhere around the world.
Thank you.
Jon Von Tetzchner: Anytime. Oh, the pleasure is all mine. All right.
Marco Ciappelli: Thank you, John. And for everybody else. Stay tuned. Uh, there'll be way to see what John does in the notes and connect with him and the browsers that he's [00:34:00] been working on. And if you have any comment, let us know and we'll try to get back to you.
Talk to you soon on the next conversation. Take care.